Monza Thread

... yes you have a point but lets think about this just once more.

A reverse grid race would currently work fairly for Ferrari, because they are heads and shoulders above the rest (and again all credit to them).

If every other team was actually producing competitive cars then a reverse grid race would not end up with the hardest works and deserving winners winning.

Yes it would be a great TV show ... but you would have a team that say is not quite as good as the Ferrari and MS pairing being able to hold MS off and win. Is that right?

The Ferrari go off and work their butts off more and improve their car ... and all this improvement just guarantees that they start from the back of the grid ... and the team that does not work as hard and make improvements gets the advantage, and may win again.

The concept only looks good at the moment, because our heros are good enough to start from the rear and still win ... you would not be so keen if there were more competitive racing.

Thus the solution really is to ensure that we have atleast 3 competitive teams ... currently we have 1.5 (Kimi occasionally is fast and the car hangs together).

Pete

EDIT: Adding weight to the winning car is also like beating a kid up for actually doing their homework and studying ... anti-achievement, and for play motor racing like touring car series where the only important thing is that manufacturers get their advertising time ...

 

If McLaren teams back up with Honda I think Ferrari will have some serious competition. The Mercedes powerplant just seems to be too finicky at best, I've heard rumors that the Honda engine is one of the most if not the most powerful engine. With rumors afloat about Honda not liking the rule changes and reconsidering their decision to stay in F1, the same with BMW it may just be that there won't be any more good teams left. I doubt McLaren will do much given the demolition derby racer is coming to join. Kimi isn't like Ralf and won't cut JPM that much slack. Unless RD does something and explains to the boneheads that team work is important McLaren will end up screwing themselves.

 

I would have to disagree, I watch a lot of TC races both American, European, Australian, etc. The competition is severe and no holds barred, F1 uses cutting edge technology while TC uses what you and I have. Billy Auberlin in SWC still kicks ass with the BMW even with penalty weight. I agree that F1 shouldn't become a cereal box race car parade, my suggestion was just that a suggestion. Personally I think the other 9 teams need to work hard and we really shouldn't penalize the top team for being good.

 

Er, ... with that comment you have completely discredited yourself

The Australian series is a complete joke. There is not a single component on those cars that you and I can buy ... other than some of the body parts.

Those cars race pushrod dinosaur engines that BOTH manufacturers stopped making years ago.

Those cars race special race gearboxes that are not sold in any road car.

Those cars race beam rear axles ... all with the FORD 9" diff!!.

The Holden car has wishbone front suspension (now) when NO Holden Commodore sold has that setup.

The Holden car has a special engine block to lower the deck height because GM and Holden produced an engine that was taller than the Ford ... and whinged and moaned about it for years until they were allowed to fix their own balls up.

The Holden car races the (old) Chev v8 that no Holden was ever actually sold with.

The driving standard of that series is embarrassing to say the least. Passing involves the standard hit the guy up the arse and make him spin off and then you are through. It is NOT great racing ... usually just follow the leader because the cars are so identical it is impossible to pass ... unless you knock the car infront off.

Many years ago in the '80s it was the best touring car series in the world when they allowed all manufacturers to play ... once they stopped that the series has become the NASCAR equivalent for Down Under.

I watch some of the races because there is little else on ... but other than about 5 drivers the rest should not be allowed to race a go kart, so poor is their abilities. The recent Sandown race is verification of the poor driving abilities.

This series survives on great marketing and getting the kids involved so that when they are older and drinking beer they and their mates will still follow the series and think Holden and Ford are actually doing something impressive.

Just my opinion
Pete
EDIT: They sound fncken awesome though and the atmosphere at a race can be fun ... yep I even sometimes go to one . This though is something I have yet to take my kids to yet ... because I'm worried about the beer drinking idiots ruining their day.

I find it amazing that beer is sold at a car racing event ... really sends the right message. Thus once they are all tanked up and blood pumping with excitement ... lets all play MS and Senna on the way home (with the kids in the back). I guess the same happens at NASCAR events?

 

Pete... I am not talking about the big name series. The smaller ones, take for instance Honda Challenge that Jon aka FLATOUTRACING competes in. I've watched a few races and trust me these guys race hard. You should watch some of the videos and you'll see what I mean. When a series goes big it becomes a marketing dream, grass roots racing is where all the passion is in these days. I watch the Valvoline run offs and the Showroom stock class races are just impressive to watch. Regular cars from the showroom with safety gear running on street tires.

 

Yes I cannot comment on those because I have never seen them. From my conversations with Jon (via posts) he sound like a decent driver, and thus I am not surprised that he is cleaning up ... if anything like Aussie series.

Australia has a procar series of road based cars and the driving standard is exactly as I described for the bigger series ... a series of desperation, panic driving moments with a few straights in between.

Maybe it is an Aussie issue ... but I have to admit that I have a very low opinion of the driving standard in any racing I have watched since moving to Australia. The standard of driving in New Zealand club racing is a lot higher ... IMO. Might have something to do with the lower funded teams ... thus they attempt to pass, not just smash them off

Pete

 

There are on BUTS, MAYBES, IFS!!!
I saw a Ferrari 1 - 2! I saw the tifosi go wild! I saw Jean Todt and Luca congratulate each other in the Ferrari pitbox. I know I am happy!
On to China and more Ferrari victories!

The critics need to find another sport!!! The F in F1 stands for Ferrari!

 

Post race quotes - courtesy www.formula1.com

Rubens Barrichello, Ferrari (1st):
“I have had a few wins, but this is the first time I win twice at the same race and it is just as magic as the last time at Monza. Some people say F1 is boring but there was nothing boring about today’s race. It is an unbelievable feeling. This has been the best season ever and all that was missing for me was a win. It came because we have a fantastic team and I say a very big thank you to all of them and all our tifosi. Thanks to them, I loved every moment of this weekend. When it is your day, it is your day! It was a difficult decision regarding tyres at the start, but I was worried I might be caught up in an accident with people spinning so I felt it was better to fit the rain tyres and push as hard as possible and try and escape the pack. I had actually chosen a set-up that slightly favoured the wet. Maybe if I had come in to change to slicks one lap earlier, my middle stint would have been easier. Then when Michael and Pizzonia passed me I thought all was lost. But when my fuel load came down I was just pushing all the time and it was a good call from the team to change the strategy. I said to myself, ‘just push the throttle and go.” Then I saw I was P4 and I could see the other three cars ahead so I knew I had a chance. I could not believe it when the team told me I was P1 and said something rude in Portuguese!”

Michael Schumacher, Ferrari (2nd):
“It was an interesting race with interesting battles. I never thought I could go from almost last to second. At the first chicane I could not stop the car in time and then at the second chicane, I got into a nice four wheel slide but Jenson was outside me, we touched and it spun me round. It was very frustrating waiting for the cars to go past before I could start again. But the car worked fantastically well. As for my tyre choice at the start, I knew that really there was no right choice, so when I saw that Rubens had gone for rain I decided to go the other way, so that at least one Ferrari got it right. But with this result, it seems that both decisions were good. Rubens deserves this win as he drove a great race after a fantastic qualifying.”

Jenson Button, BAR (3rd):
"It's fantastic for BAR to move into second in the Constructors' Championship after such a great result today. We came very close to our first victory here but third and fourth for myself and Taku is amazing and I dedicate this podium to the team who have done a great job all weekend. I didn't think the Ferraris were going to be that strong from what we could see earlier in the race, but all credit to them for turning things around in the closing stages. We did a good job to get into third place by the first stops and we had a strong race, but unfortunately not as strong as the Ferraris. In the end I focused on looking after the tyres and extending the gap between myself and Alonso. I think we have an exciting end to the season ahead of us and I now look forward to the challenge of a new race in China in two weeks' time."

Takuma Sato, BAR (4th):
"It was a very spectacular race. We started in damp conditions with half the circuit still wet, so I think everyone seemed to struggle a bit in the beginning. My start was good but I could not pull away at the exit of the first chicane, so I lost quite a few places. Once the conditions improved though I was able to get back on the pace. The most important thing is that the team have come home second in the Championship and the momentum from today must be carried forward for the last three races of the season, which will be extremely exciting."

Juan Pablo Montoya, Williams (5th):
“I didn’t have enough grip at the start and I lost one position to Alonso. My car was pretty good in both the first and the second stints when we were close to the cars in front and quite competitive. However, in the last stint the car became very difficult to drive. After the pit-stop I dropped from 3 rd to 6 th position and I could not keep up with the cars in front anymore because of a gearbox problem. Today we collected some more points, which is good, but you would expect a better finish when starting from the first row.”

David Coulthard, McLaren (6th):
"Considering the circumstances, we have to be relatively satisfied with sixth place. Based on my experience from last week's test I thought it would still be damp in the forest section of the track and decided to start the race on intermediates as did Rubens. However it already became clear on the installation lap that dry weather tyres were the right choice and I went into the pits to change. As a result the team changed my strategy to a one stop. Towards the end of the race Pizzonia hit me from the back whilst he was trying to overtake me under braking. To be honest I was ready for it as I knew he would try something like that and managed to keep the car on the track and salvage three points."

Antonio Pizzonia, Williams (7th):
“My race was basically compromised on the very first lap, when I got hit from behind and spun off. I was very lucky to get out of the gravel and that my car wasn’t damaged but still I dropped to 19 th position. After that, I basically spent my race climbing up the field and I eventually finished in 7 th position behind Coulthard. We were very close and I hoped that I could overtake him but he had more speed than me on the straight and I just couldn’t pass him. I had a good opportunity with a couple of laps to go when David made a mistake in the last corner and I got very close to him coming out of the Parabolica, but we both locked our wheels and hit each other going in to the first chicane, luckily with no consequence for either of us.”

Giancarlo Fisichella, Sauber (8th):
"A point was what I expected, but also not what I expected, given the unusual circumstances at the beginning of the race. I was always confident overall that we could score, but to begin with I lost vital time through the combination of low downforce, a high fuel load and dry tyres. But once the track began to dry I felt more confident and was able to start pushing hard and have a very good race. At the end I saw Pizzonia and Coulthard collide and hoped momentarily that I might get even more, but I am satisfied with a point for eighth today."

Mark Webber, Jaguar (9th):
“The rain overnight managed to change the track conditions quite considerably by this morning and so starting the race today was a bit of a lottery on the tyre front. We made a good decision though and I am pleased with how our start went. I was keen to stay out of the collision zone of the second chicane and I managed to do so. The car felt good out there although we were suffering slightly from under-steer that was making it more challenging to drive. The boys have prepared the car well this weekend and I am pleased with ninth position. We have had good reliability all weekend and this is as a result of the hard work that we have been doing. Looking ahead to the final three races, we are all keen to finish on a high and thus will be looking to score as many points as possible between now and the end of the season.”

Jarno Trulli, Renault (10th):
"This was a very tough race for me. I struggled in the opening stages when the grip levels were low - I could not find a good pace and could not feel how the car was handling. As the circuit dried out, the handling improved slowly but the car was still difficult to drive. I was quick towards the end of my stints though, and particularly at the end of the race, but by then it was too late to make up any positions."

Ricardo Zonta, Toyota (11th):
"The start was good. I just took care not to make contact with anyone because I was not sure how slippery the track would be after all the rain that we had during the morning. It was difficult to increase the temperature of the tyres at the beginning when the track was still damp. Every time I was behind another car, I lost downforce and the tyre did not perform. Throughout the whole race, I suffered from low grip levels and I simply had to try and retain my position. I am not pleased to finish in 11th position after all the effort we have put in this weekend."

Felipe Massa, Sauber (12th):
"I had a good start and I think it was the correct decision to go for intermediate tyres on my car. I made up a lot of positions and got as high as sixth at one stage. Once I had switched to dry tyres I got on to a damp patch and slid into the back of Nick Heidfeld. That was annoying because I wasn't even trying to pass him, and it cost me my front wing. Overall, however, the car was very quick and I could match the pace of the leaders. Without my problem I'm sure I could have scored more points this afternoon."

Christian Klien, Jaguar (13th):
“My start was good into the first corner and fortunately through the first chicane cleanly. Although it was not raining at the start of the race the track remained quite damp and it was actually quite tricky at times to drive. For me the beginning of the race was really enjoyable and the car felt very good. I enjoyed racing and the Michelin tyres were working well with the car. We did change my front flap slightly however to help with the balance and some under-steer that I was suffering and this seemed to help. My second stint was a bit tricky with the under-steer and it made the car more difficult to drive. However, going into my third stint I made up some time and aimed for the chequered flag. I did have to do a drive-through though of the pit-lane as it appears that I was speeding in the pit-lane during one of my pit stops. I did overtake the Renault of Jarno Trulli at one point though and that was great fun. Overall I enjoyed the race and I am pleased with finishing. I am now looking ahead to the final three races with the goal of scoring points to help the team finish seventh in the Constructors Championship.”

Nick Heidfeld, Jordan (14th):
“I am relatively happy with what we achieved, as I think we managed to get the maximum from our resources. Early on I had problems overtaking the Minardi because he seemed to have better top speed than me but once I got past, my pace was good. Then Felipe tried to overtake me and ran into the back of my car which did a little damage but thankfully it had no big influence on the balance. We converted to a one-stop strategy which worked out, although it wasn’t easy with a heavy fuel load and having to really look after the tyres. While I would always be happier with a better position, I think we did everything we possibly could have so I’m satisfied with our efforts.”

Fernando Alonso, Renault (DNF):
"The first thing to say is that we will bounce back from this result. Monza was the worst circuit of the year for our car but I was competitive and fighting with BAR. I hope the next Grand Prix will see us climb back up the table. As for the race itself, we made the right decision on tyres at the start, I made a good start and then everything went as normal. Jenson overtook me during the first round of pit-stops, but I was keeping up with him. My spin occurred when I took too much kerb in the second chicane and lost control of the rear end of the car but after that, I was surprised that the marshals decided not to push me, as the rules allow them to. But that's life: we now need to focus on the last three races to re-take second place in the championship."

Giorgio Pantano, Jordan (DNF):
“I don’t know exactly what happened but at Parabolica very soon after my second pit stop, I think perhaps I found some water or something on the track and the car just suddenly spun. I saw Nick running wide there as well, just ahead of me. Once I had spun there was nothing I could do and it was quite a big crash. I’m really disappointed and it’s a shame to retire from my home Grand Prix like this.”

Kimi Raikkonen, McLaren (DNF):
"I think we could have been in a strong position for a podium finish today. However it was not to be, as after only two laps it became clear that my engine was losing water pressure. It was a shame as I made a good start and gained a few places. Things were looking good and this is not the way I would have liked to finish the European season, but at least we now have the pace to fight for victories."

Olivier Panis, Toyota (DNF):
"I am extremely disappointed with the outcome of today's race. I think the team made a good strategic decision to start on slick tyres despite the damp track conditions. I gained a place into the first corner, and I was racing closely with Pizzonia at the second chicane with the field very tight. I picked up a bit of understeer and ran into the back of his car, which broke my front wing. I then ended up in the gravel and my race was over. It is a real shame after what has been a difficult weekend for me."

 

Actually the beauty of reversed grid is, that it is a self regulating system: If they don't make it back to the front, they will get less points and hence start from a better position in the following race.

One technical thing to discuss would be whether the reversed grid should be based on WC points or last race's position.

 

What a nice come back. I watch the race yesterday but too jubilant to post comments... I cannot believe how MS came back from almost dead last to finish 2nd. Great result for Ferrari showing their dominance even when points gained is meaningless. CONGRATULATION

 

F1 drivers are smart, they can handle this. True they made some bad start accidents, but you put the screws on them - like after the Melbourne and Interlagos crashes - and they get through the first corner just fine.

It's racing? Hey c'mon! F1 as any great racing event is primarily entertainment. True it is not scripted like wrestling, but without TV audiences NO money would pour into the sport. If people turn off their TVs, there won't be any racing, like it or not. And ever since the dominance of Ferrari became obvious - no this is not about Ferrari, any dominance is bad for the show - TV ratings started going down. If you want pure motor sports racing - if that isn't an oximoron by itself - time travel to the fifties or watch a soap box derby. Maybe you find true, untainted, uninfluenced by any agenda racing there. I doubt it.

Let's be honest for just one moment: F1 needed Ferrari to win the championship at some point so they helped them by changing the rules. Ferrari won the title square and fair in 2000 and didn't need that help, true. But the help was there, because F1 cannot survive without Ferrari's glory. Other cases for other teams have been made. Don't believe me? Just reread some of F1's history: The famous vacuum Brabham was retired after one victory by Bernie himself more for political reasons than anything. How about the war between FISA and FOCA in the early eighties? F1 is political and has to suit a lot of different interests so don't be blue eyed and tell me it is all about the sport. It should be, but it isn't, because it also serves other interests. If Ferrari is never winning, it is not good for F1. If Ferrari is always winning it is not good either. And I'm not picking on Ferrari, after all that is my team, it is about dominance. The Mc Laren dominance wasn't good nor was the Williams dominance, but that didn't last too long luckily.

Besides: I rather see a thriller of a race as it was in Monza or Spa than e.g. Bahrain where the Ferraris - insert any dominating team here - drove circles around the rest.

 

Tifosi12,

But this dominance problem is only caused if the team (like Ferrari are doing) refuse to hire a number 2 driver that can challenge the number 1 driver.

Thus all this Ferrari dominating would not be boring if we 100% knew that there was a 100% race on between MS and RB ... but we 100% know there is NOT.

In the end you do not need 20 cars battling to make an interesting race ... you just need 2 cars battling ... nobody else matters.

Thus the current problem is NOT with Ferrari dominating and thus the need to introduce 'TV show' rules, like your reverse grid, but simply to talk to Ferrari and get them to agree to stop playing team orders. Show them that it is actually hurting RB's, MS's and their own image. Unfortunately I do not think that Italians will understand this concept ... remember we are talking about a company that just named a car 'Enzo Ferrari' as an honour to their creator ... what happens when they produce a BETTER car, what will they call it? Very short termed thinking going on there ... .

It most definitely has killed RB's career, and has most definitely made MS look no where near as good as he really is. Most people now think that MS wins simply because of the car advantage and RB helping him by blocking the other teams ... very sad for MS that he is currently known as not a real winner by most.

Ferrari, the team, need to stop focus'ing on winning is everything and remember that how you win is MORE important (once you are winning). They are entitled to play these team orders/games but it really is no longer necessary and it is time for them to put something back into the sport and stop continuing to suck it dry.

McLaren did the same with Hakenin and Coulthard and it really hurt the sport ... Ferrari are now doing it just as bad. The only solution appears to be either:
1. MS retires, as a hollow victor ... ie. he had NO competition for ALL the WC's he won after his 3rd.
2. Ferrari team does a nose dive and looses the plot .

IM (very serious) O, Ferrari need to call a press conference and state that for next year they are going to give sport back to F1, they are going to:
1. Have separate engineering teams with no cooperation between their 2 drivers teams on race weekends.
2. Ross Brawn to make overall strategy decisions, but once the race starts is not interfere and allow 2 new people to individually run MS's and RB's race without consultation.

Yes Ferrari may loose the championship ... but they will win millions of hearts that have, while enjoying their success, since become disallusioned at how unsporting they intend to keep it ... like watching somebody beat a defenceless animal to death.

If Ferrari keep on dominating in this method ... they will loose in the end. They will become the HATED team in F1, OR they will cause interest in the sport to dwindle to such a low point that motorracing fans will move to sportscars or something ... OR just as bad, stupid () completely unsporting related rules will be introduced.

Pete

 

Its a good thing Ferrari does not listen to stupid people!!!

 

Unlike you not all of us Ferrari fans are enjoying watching the boring steam roller. Yes it is great that Ferrari are winning ... but I have lost interest in that. Who cares anymore. The important thing about winning after the 21 years drought was to win. We did that, we do not have to win for the rest of my life for me to be satisfied and proud of 'my' team.

I am very disappointed in what Ferrari are doing to MS's career and reputation. The best driver by far in modern times and Ferrari are making him look simply average because nobody has seen him challenged for the last 4 years. Thus many are forgetting how hard he had to work to get Ferrari to the top.

Read many of the posts even on this site, and you will see many FerrariChat members even think MS is over rated and that his championships have been easy ... I know that is not so, but I have been following F1 for ages, many newbies have only seen MS walk away from the field in his perfect Ferrari, and did not watch the 5 years of struggle to get there.

Yes I am probably stupid ... but it is time for Ferrari to acknowledge their superiority and relax the team orders to allow RB to improve and MS to be challenged.

Pete
ps: Ask a teenage what they think about Ferrari, MS and F1. They will probably tell you that Ferrari have always won and always will, and F1 is boring because Ferrari only ever win. Why do they even bother racing?

I have teenage step-sons and this is honestly their belief ... even after listening to me telling them it is not so.

 

Ofcourse logic (and statistics) show that this Ferrari all conquering dominance cannot last forever. Eventually somebody else will make a decent car, or Ferrari/Bridgestone will drop the ball ... or MS will retire, etc.

Then I, like the rest of you, will be grateful to have witnessed this period ... but like the rest of you I'll keep quiet about how bloody boring it really was to watch

Pete

 

F1 does not need fans who do not understand the sport. For that there is the turn left series.

Ferrari win because they deserve to win. Anyone that complains and criticizes the current state of things needs to find another sport.

 

PSK has a right to his opinion. What are you the F1 Nazi, if someone doesn't like something they should find another sport? Being Fan is not being a STAT Freak like yourself. Stats doesn't mean one person knows or doesn't know about a sport.

 

, er, actually I have said a similar thing about F1 before on this site ... ie. if somebody finds F1 boring they should stop watching.

The only difference between Imperial83 and I is that Ferrari winning all the time does not make my world go around. A Ferrari winning a close battle against a worthy competitor (and that includes another Ferrari) is what makes raises my heart rate ...

I am not interested in statistics or how many times Ferrari win, just thrilling battles where we can see the car and drivers ability fully tested.

We may see that next year as McLaren may stop playing with road cars and remember racing takes your full concentration.

Pete

 

Here's how I look at this

I would like more competition too ... Forget all the rule mongering ... all we need is a truly competitive Williams and Mclaren and watch the fireworks. We dont need 20 competitive cars (it will be nice but unrealistic) - what we need is 4 or 6 cars in close competition for intense fun to occur.

Michael showed the depth of his character and ability last year when he snatched a string of victories just when we thought a Michelin whitewash was inevitable. He single-handedly turned the tide. The man is worth his weight in gold.

With the 2004 season the way it is ... sure the Ferrari is streets ahead of the rest (though the gap has closed some). But Michael's performances have made Rubens look second rate. Rubens had the same car but still struggled for many races. And Rubens is a good driver. Michael seemed to turn the wick up when he wanted to.

2004 is easy for Michael and Ferrari because both worked hard to get the results. A lot sweat has gone into this. It wasn't a rabbit out of the hat. Kudos to them.

But I would give Michael the relaxation of the 2004 season - he earned the "vacation" after all his hard work last year.

2003 was the best season for me for the last few years ... 2000 being the exciting season before.

2005 looks good even if say Ferrari is dominant - I am interested in the team mates battle as well:
- Raikkonen vs Montoya
- Fisichella vs Alonso
- Webber vs Button

 

Har! Pete, you rarely get THAT excited! That's why I like you Pete - never afraid to turn the tables on yourself!

HOWEVER....(Pete, you knew this was coming!) MS has destroyed every teammate he has been partnered with. He can take a piece of crap and bring it home in the points (much like Weber is doing now....watch this space!). I think this current run just shows how phenomenal MS really is! I do not believe the conspiracy theories about MS and company keeping poor little RB down. You have to catch him to beat him. If RB had taken points over MS early on, he would be the "number 1". I'm sure they start with a clean slate every year. He just has not been able to do it - like evey other driver paired with MS. The team needs to win to keep the money rolling in. They do not care who does it. Think about it, if multi $M a year MS gets beat by "lacky" RB ( who make considerably less), do you not think that the Scuderia would love to save some bucks? After all, it's all about the bucks. Monty could care less who brings it in.
Jim

 

I can't possibly believe Ferrari would risk their $500m/year (or whatever it really is) investment with fielding two independent cars. But I sure like the low downforce configuration and slippery track we saw last weekend! Not sure I like F1 having smaller engines than F3000 though - that would suck.

 

I do not think I know enough to be considered a stat freak! But if you still think I am, then I will take it as a compliment.

Yes, everyone has a right to their opinion. But blaming Ferrari for everything that is wrong with F1 is plain ignorant. Rubens, Michael, Ferrari, and the other partners do their best to keep the team on top. The lack of competition is due to McLaren, Williams, Toyota, Jaguar, BAR, Sauber and Minardi not being able to come up with a competitive formula.

I am sick and tired of people building this conspiracy theory. Present a proof, present to the forum Rubens contract that says he is number 2 for ever. Show us hard evidence. If you don't have it and think F1 is boring, find another sport!

 

Boy this forum is getting like the "Religion & Politics Forum".

Sorry but the guys who watch the "Left Turn" series as you claim most likely understand a whole h*ll of a lot more about their sport than you do about F1 or that matter most of us.

Those "Left Turn" guys could likley WORK on those NASCAR cars, maybe change the oil, replace an axle, rebuild a tranny.

But I seriously doubt any of us can properly explain how a numatic valve works or explain the idea behind using hydralics.

Don't knock those "Left Turn" folks. Their sport may be low technology, but they actually understand it and can relate to it (they probably take their GM and Ford transmissions apart on a monthly basis).

Maybe we should add "not for the weak of heart" to this forum

Regards,

Jon P. Kofod
www.flatoutracing.net.