News

Monterey car auction extravaganza

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by Timmmmmmmmmmy, Jul 27, 2015.

  1. Daytonafan

    Daytonafan F1 Rookie

    Oct 18, 2003
    2,679
    Surrey, England
    Full Name:
    Matthew
    I wonder with the pinnacle cars if RM were working to achieve an overall $ target for the vendor. The might have allowed them some leeway to sell certain cars under estimate because others (such as the Enzo) were over estimate?
     
  2. MS250

    MS250 Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Dec 10, 2003
    24,418
    Full Name:
    Avvocato
    I would say "stable"
     
  3. 330 4HL

    330 4HL Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    May 12, 2005
    840
    Vancouver
    Full Name:
    Rick Bradner
    the always interesting Bring-a Trailer runs week long auctions that have a reasonable "maximum" premium of $5K -
     
  4. cnpapa24

    cnpapa24 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 19, 2014
    3,162
    NOLA
    Full Name:
    Chris
    Unless you have inspected the cars and compare condition to selling price I don't think this is correct assessment.
     
  5. TheMayor

    TheMayor Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 11, 2008
    75,328
    Vegas baby
    Mmmmm...no.

    Many cars did not meet reserves and were unsold. That means more expense to the owners to put it up next time In the next auction. It's not like Dino's only pop up now and then. They are a over the place.

    It's a downward trend from last year.
     
  6. TheMayor

    TheMayor Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 11, 2008
    75,328
    Vegas baby
    #231 TheMayor, Aug 16, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2015
    Exactly my point.

    The run up in Dino prices pushed more junk on the market. When people realize what they really bought they will be forced to dump it. This will drive down prices.

    The only people who win in this game are the auction houses. They get you on the way up and on the way down.

    Fchat people are the biggest hypocrites.

    "Don't buy a car without a PPI!"

    Then they cheer people on to buy a car in an auction they can't even sit in.
     
  7. 375+

    375+ F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 28, 2005
    6,826
    +1 It is difficult to make generalizations based on auction results alone. If you just look at Ferrari sales at RM it would appear that the end is at hand; last night Gooding had a very strong sale. Dino GT at RM was not a strong car; the GT at Bonhams also not a great one but sold well. By and large the Dino market is showing good resilience. Remarkable cars bring remarkable results, lesser cars can be hit or miss.
     
  8. coryh

    coryh Karting

    Nov 26, 2011
    104
    +1. Thank you for your efforts
    Cory
     
  9. ttn27

    ttn27 Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 30, 2010
    1,081
    TX
    Full Name:
    TN
    What about the boxer market? Very few at Monterey this year (correct me if I am wrong, but I only saw 3, the blue one at RM did quite well, the one at Mecum was a no sell, and the Gooding one still waiting until tonight).
     
  10. dwhite

    dwhite F1 Rookie

    Looks like etypes are solid 200k cars for early ones. I figured I would never own one again with all the 300k estimates.

    I'm shocked at the MGA convert price. Was it a special car?
     
  11. 375+

    375+ F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 28, 2005
    6,826
    IMO opinion Boxer market is healthy, the car at Gooding tonight should set the mark.
     
  12. cnpapa24

    cnpapa24 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 19, 2014
    3,162
    NOLA
    Full Name:
    Chris
    Boxer market still moving swiftly. I haven't inspected the Boxer at Gooding yet, but will do so tonight.
     
  13. alfred1976

    alfred1976 Karting
    BANNED

    Mar 26, 2015
    76
    #238 alfred1976, Aug 16, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Here is a mega photo gallery from the event.

    From the article:
    2015 Quail Motorsports Gathering photo gallery at Monterey Car Week is sprinkled with the top of the food chain automotive machinery. This is the place that you will come across cars that are probably never seen on any roads. The multi million dollar cars are works of art and are treated as such. Some of these cars are worth more then huge mansions in exclusive neighborhoods.

    Photos and article - 2015 Quail Motorsports Gathering Photo Gallery – Monterey Car Week

    .
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  14. zjpj

    zjpj F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    5,938
    USA
    Prices are still crazy in my view. Most of these cars are at least 300% higher than they were a few years ago. Makes me wish I'd gone on a buying spree 15 years ago.
     
  15. Super_Dave

    Super_Dave Formula Junior

    Oct 6, 2014
    697
    USA
    Full Name:
    Dave
    Market moves in waves. In 12 months or so there will be buying opportunities. All you need is market to be stable or slightly down to take speculative momentum and turn it on its head. Once you get rid of people buying "in case it goes up further" rather than for the love of the cars (which shouldn't change much) you start getting deflationary expectations and people "waiting and seeing" if they can get a better price in X months from now.

    Hard to gauge the auction results without knowing condition but you can gauge vs. estimates. Others here know far far more than I about how the majority of cars did vs. estimates but that should be the best predictor of trend.
     
  16. TheMayor

    TheMayor Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 11, 2008
    75,328
    Vegas baby
    IMO, most "collector" cars should be worth at MOST their restoration costs without the cost of the original car.

    Yes, some special, unique, and extremely rare cars will exceed that. If you look at the market for Pre-war American cars, that's pretty much the pattern. It's true for most 50's - 60's American cars as well.

    But what's rare about an Etype jag?

    If it costs $150k to restore an Etype jag, that should be its market price. If it's restored poorly or unrestored, its less.

    But then, I'm not a speculator.

    Is an Etype jag a great car to drive for $150K? You bet.
     
  17. ttn27

    ttn27 Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 30, 2010
    1,081
    TX
    Full Name:
    TN
    Are the prices listed on Mecum website the hammered prices or the prices with buyer's premium included?
     
  18. MS250

    MS250 Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Dec 10, 2003
    24,418
    Full Name:
    Avvocato
    A seller has the option to lower pricing, which they didn't. Therefore , u sold is just that , unsold - meaning buyers need to pony up !

    If a seller continues to refuse to sell lower, guess what , no bubble .... Welcome to free enterprise at its finest !


    It's a good thing you said IMO .... Because IMO I don't think any of the toys you sell are worth .25 cents either, but guess what , welcome to the free market ! Others think they are worth more than I do , just like the Dino etc....

    The market will decide , both a seller and a buyer , I think many forget that a seller plays the same exact role as a buyer in this equation.
     
  19. wizzells

    wizzells Karting

    Jul 16, 2005
    230
    Milwaukee, WI
    They look like hammer prices to me.
     
  20. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
    Honorary

    Jun 19, 2012
    1,252
    Some observations:

    1. It appears that for some Enzo era Ferrari's, the sellers got greedy, and the auction company's went with them. Most of the "No Sale" cars were bid to prices that, two years ago, would have been considered astounding.

    2. The strength of the late model Ferrari prices is signaling a change in the market. A new generation is arriving with memories of these cars and new collection agendas.

    3. Maserati and Lamborghini are both showing continued upward values, as some previously Ferrari collectors readjust their financial assets, and now begin to recognize the other Italian marques.

    4. Great Classics are no longer adjusting downward, as a new generation in their 40-60s are taking a new look at these cars.

    5. It now takes $150-300,000 to acquire the lowest level of "special" collectible car.

    6. Brass era cars are becoming harder to sell due to generational changes. Only special cars will advance in value over the years.

    7. Porsche's are HOT. I personally do not understand it, as by collectible standards, they are VERY common.

    8. People love weird "little" cars. Not too expensive and easy to store.

    9, Muscle cars will be generally valuable for about another 10 years, and then it will have to be rare and have great provenance to hold value.

    Just some thoughts after the last three days.
     
  21. 85886

    85886 Karting

    Feb 22, 2012
    134
    :D
     
  22. TheMayor

    TheMayor Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 11, 2008
    75,328
    Vegas baby
    Do you understand what the free market means? It doesn't mean the buyers have to "pony up". It means the cars are being sold OVER PRICED to the point that no one wants to buy it.

    No buyers for your product at your price means -- NO MARKET. Get it?

    There's no market for cars at this price. To sell, you have to lower the price. Once that becomes a trend, the bubble is burst.

    Don't believe me? Try Real Estate in 2008.
     
  23. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 5, 2010
    2,099
    NZ
    Full Name:
    Timothy Russell
    I personally feel that there are three completely different markets at play here

    1 - The classics, be it Enzo era Ferrari's, full classic Americana from Duesenberg or Packard or limited production exotics like a Jaguar C-Type. If they were built in truly low quantities (less than 100) and/or achieved something special such as winning Le Mans. These are fully special and lead the market. Anything perfect such as RM 250LM & Jaguar C-Type or Gooding Bertone 250 SWB will receive top market pricing and anything wrong will be discounted severely. This market is full understood as it is the basis of the industry.

    2 - The others, also pre 1980s, the more common cars, the Jaguar E-types, the Mercedes 190sl, the general american cars that were made in production runs of thousands. These have value and make up the bread and butter of Ebay, Mecum, Barret-Jackson and Craigs list. The value increase in group 1 is dragging group 2 kicking and screaming up and some are hitting decent money but these will never be million dollar cars because there are too many of them. Supply and demand is inverse in this group, some surprises can occur with people new to the market being particularly succeptible to unscrupulous sellers making claims of value. We really will know if we have a bubble when we see million dollar e-types or million pound daytona's or some such that is neither rare nor worth a million dollars/ pounds in the long term. Just look at the bubble in American Muscle car in 2005 - 2008 and their eventual crash to earth....

    3 - The new and shiny. ALL of the post 1980s Exotica that are going well at the moment share some of the qualities that make classic's valuable but none of them share all of those values. The qualities as I see them are A - Low production ala McLaren F1 or Ferrari 288 GTO, B - great competition history ala McLaren F1 or Porsche 911GT1, C - Power and beauty - each supercar is more powerful than the last and beauty is not easily quantifiable. SO whereas your 250LM has low production, won le mans and is arguably beautiful apart from perhaps the McLaren F1 there are no modern supercars that can even come close to ticking all the boxes. As I was a teenager in the 1980s I can understand the desire to buy a 959 or 288 GTO or Countach but I cannot understand the market. Will be interesting to see if these prices ($600k Ferrari F512M anyone, WTF) are the new level.

    Some on this thread are complaining about the auction companies taking huge profits or whatever. This I am afraid is wrong, the auction companies have created much of the current market and without them I think the industry would look much different. Further if you want to maximise your to sell in the million or ten million dollar you can either quietly sell it in amongst your Pebble Beach buddies or via a broker or through one of the big three. The broker (Mark Ketcham, Talacrest, Kidston or Lukas Huni are four of the many) would expect to take his fee or percentage off the top and would market it to his/ her contacts and get a good price. The auction house, especially Gooding and RM would market it world wide and ensure every possible purchaser knew it was selling and would maximise the bid price, just look at Gooding selling the Porsche 956 or Bertone 250 and RM selling the Jaguar C-Type. All of these sales would have been impossible in other forums.

    All my 2 cents, what does everyone else think?
     
  24. 330 4HL

    330 4HL Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    May 12, 2005
    840
    Vancouver
    Full Name:
    Rick Bradner
    I think you have this just about dead right, although I'm not sure where it leaves cars like my '64 330 with more than 100 but less than thousands.
    It seems that the hundreds (thousands?) of hours you've put into providing summaries of all of the sales has worked its way into your cellular structure providing you with the insights of Obi Won...:)
    BTW, thanks again for what you do here every auction season, it's pretty amazing.
     
  25. MS250

    MS250 Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Dec 10, 2003
    24,418
    Full Name:
    Avvocato
    But if I don't need to sell at that lower price what does that mean ?

    If my testarossa is worth a 100 and I tell you to go find your own, why do I have to sell it to you if I want to try to sell .... The key word, try to sell , NOT NEED To sell.

    This last auction illustrated that these sellers didn't NEED TO SELL.

    Now, if next year these same sellers come back at a lower price and do sell, now you have a data point of lower prices .... We don't have that right now.

    All we know is buyers and sellers haven't completed a transaction , let's see who blinks first :)
     

Share This Page