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Monterey auction time

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by Timmmmmmmmmmy, Jul 16, 2013.

  1. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Jun 19, 2012
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    Jim: We had four cars had Laguna. All were "real" cars, though the SWB has some modifications (6 carbs). I, also, am concerned as it appers that vintage racing is going through a transition. There were NO 250 Testa Rossa's, one Birdcage and only one 250 GTO present at Laguna this year. Many of the people whom we used to race with are leaving or gone due to age, changing interest or concerns about car values. Many of the vintage events now are more focused on the financial results than the cars and drivers. Large grids make for better finances and offer the casual spectator more to see, but the quality of the driving has defintely been reduced. Many owners of "special" cars have decided it is not worth the risk to place their car on the same track as $40,000 vintage race cars driven by individuals of lesser ability. Just look at Elkhart Lake to see large grids made up of cars of lesser value and importance. Thankfully, we stopped going there the year of the big crash. If you looked around, you could see it coming.
     
  2. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Hey

    Interesting post. Thanks. Elkhart Lake was very bad and IMO "Hot Rodded" Vintage cars and "Hot Rodded Drivers" were a big part of what happened.

    You guys should come to The Ring when we go back in 2015. Even though that is a modern race it still has a lot of the feel 1967 in it especially at 3am in the rain from pit row.

    Best
     
  3. 355dreamer

    355dreamer F1 World Champ
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    For some reason, this quote really struck me.

    Keep it up JG. You're truly living the dream.
     
  4. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
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    Steven Robertson
    No different to the sale of most goods where there is a chain of people being paid before ending up for sale at retail.
     
  5. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
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    The incorrect number #935 was an error of Gooding and corrected with a sale room notice.

    My history report for 0690 MDTR states "During the Cuban Grand Prix in Havana Armando Garcia Cifuentes crashed and ran into a group of spectators, killing seven people and injuring more than 40 persons, on race #54. The deadly crash happened near the American Embassy. The car was painted yellow with a black stripe. Originally the car was to have been driven by Chaguito Gonzalez, but Cifuentes refused to hand over the car to Gonzalez".

    Marcel Massini
     
  6. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #406 miurasv, Aug 25, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2013
    It was the poor spectator safety conditions and the oil on the track at the 1958 Cuban Grand Prix that was the cause of seven people being killed and over 40 people being injured in the accident involving Ferrari 0690 MDTR being driven by Armando Garcia Cifuentes. Hardly the fault of the Ferrari.
     
  7. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Exactly and the rest of the Gooding description precisely and accurately described exactly what this car is and what it isn't.

    The Talcrest advertisement speaks for itself:

    "Outstanding in Presentation and Ready to Show, Tour, and Enjoy
    Documented by Noted Ferrari Historian Marcel Massini"

    IMO this clearly implies that your "Massini Report" which is NOT included in the advertisement is an endorsement of this car which IMO is misleading as well."

    "Chassis: 0690 MDTR
    The current engine is an early outside plug 250 unit with internal number 1586/62E that has been re-stamped with the car’s chassis number, 0690.

    One of Only 19 Examples Originally Produced
    Among the Most Beautiful Racing Cars Ever Designed
    3rd in Class and 12th Overall in the 1957 Mille Miglia
    Participant in the 1958 Cuban Grand Prix
    Well-Documented Provenance with One Owner from 1985
    Expertly Restored During the Late 1980s by Neil Twyman
    Presented in 1958 Scuderia Cuba Livery
    Accompanied by the Original Gearbox from 0708 MDTR
    Outstanding in Presentation and Ready to Show, Tour, and Enjoy
    Documented by Noted Ferrari Historian Marcel Massini"
     
  8. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    The above is EXACTLY what the Gooding on line advert for 0690 MDTR says too. See here: 1957 Ferrari 500 TRC | Gooding & Company

    I have not read it but the fact that there is a Marcel Massini Report for the car does not mean he endorses the car and nor does the Talcrest or Gooding advert imply that he does. It just means he has prepared a report for it.
     
  9. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jim Glickenhaus
  10. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    Clearly you have not scrolled down the "Car Highlights" in the Gooding description.
     
  11. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #411 miurasv, Aug 25, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2013
    Link to Gooding Web Site 2013 Pebble Beach Results: http://www.goodingco.com/results/realized/?cat=17

    Link to RM Auctions Web Site 2013 Monterey Results: http://www.rmauctions.com/results/result.cfm?SaleCode=MO13

    Link to Bonhams Web Site 2013 Quail Results: http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/20994/

    Link to Russo & Steele Web Site 2013 Monterey Results. Sign in to see results: http://www.russoandsteele.com/index.php/car-search?auction_pk=81

    Link to Mecum Web Site 2013 Monterey Results. Sign in to see results. http://www.mecum.com/auctions/auction_results.cfm
     
  12. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
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    IMO in my amateur eye, I feel confident that this car could be entered at most American and all but a few european races. At its core it is a even number Ferrari prototype racer from the golden years even if it does have the wrong engine.

    Another issue altogether is the acceptance of replica's in historic racing circles. Goodwood is perhaps the perfect organisation in respect to the acceptance or not of cars with less than perfect provenance. Several times over the last few years cars such as the Lancia D50, an almost complete replica with only the engine and a few parts from an original car, have been accepted. This is actually a positive as there is only one (maybe 2) original cars and they wont be racing any time soon, Lord March will accept replica's in that situation. Some english based classic racers have even built ultra realistic replica's of cars they own so they can safely race and worst case scenario crash without wrecking their priceless posessions (250GTO and Aston DP215 spring to mind).

    What I do personally take exception to are three things

    - Replica's masquerading as the real thing, enough semi original D - Type Jaguars and Maserati 250F's out there let alone absolute fakes.

    - Using non - original parts, safety is one thing but when does the line get crossed. Use 2013 spec. tyres (original size though) and fire extinguishers BUT please no carbon fibre or other go faster mods. Adrian Neweys E - Type Jaguar would be an example of a car that is now much much quicker than it has any rights too and is all a little fake.

    - Ensuring that racing takes part but not needlessly, Steve Earle used to be the master at enabling racing but penalising stupidity. If you went to the Monterey historics and did something stupid you were suspended for the rest of the weekend and the following year too. This ensured everyone kept it clean. Nowadays a fair suggestion would be that too many race meetings dont deal with driver standards to the same extent. Finally if you have a non - original car you wont be worried about crashing it to the same extent as someone that does. BryanP and others have discussed this point and frankly it would be a mistake to actually race any car that is completely original.......
     
  13. ggjjr

    ggjjr Formula Junior

    Nov 11, 2003
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    George
    Yes, very interesting. I was noticing the lack of TR's, myself, this year. It was great seeing one of the original Grand Sports racing this year, and unfortunate it was only one. If this keeps up, will people, like myself, travel across the country to attend the Monterey week? I wasn't too impressed with Pebble this year. The tour seemed to have less participants, and if not for the exhibition of Alfa 8's the concours would have been much less worthwhile. Am I the only one with these feelings?
     
  14. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
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    george burgess
    I gather from the above etc that this was a single owner,Neil Twyman and never owned by Colin Crabb. Was it C B who bought it from the Cuban government or just brokered the sale.What ever there must be a story here. BTW didn't Crabbe show the car at the Schwetzingen show in July 2001? tongascrew
     
  15. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Jun 19, 2012
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    Twyman was the restorer, Crabbe was the owner.
     
  16. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
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  17. Mrpbody44

    Mrpbody44 F1 Veteran
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    Yes but it has been happening for some time. I remember going to Cavallino just for the race days and you would see some great cars. I remember seeing some pre war Alfa's blasting around the track too. I stopped going 4 years ago as most of the 50's cars I was into were no longer on the track. This has been happening with vintage motorcycle racing too as more modern bikes are on the track.

    Vintage racing is more popular than ever and SVRA is doing a great job of making it a better experience. But you will see fewer and fewer great cars on the track.
     
  18. geno berns

    geno berns F1 Rookie
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    Oct 26, 2006
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    Mr. W's cars? Had the blue Scarab there, etc...

     
  19. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #419 miurasv, Aug 28, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2013
    Talacrest have sold the 365 California Spyder even before it lands in the UK so they have sold 2 out of the 3 cars they bought in the recent auctions.
    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsk5ntcelaw]Rare FERRARI 365 California Spyder 1 of 14 built. - YouTube[/ame]
     
  20. silver1331

    silver1331 Formula Junior
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    Feb 9, 2009
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    the 330gtc 10105 that sold for $467k is now for sale at $750k 2 weeks later...

    1967 Ferrari 330 GTC
     
  21. 335s

    335s Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2007
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    T. Monma
    FWIW-
    I've known this car for decades, and knew Bill since the 1970's(we first met on a day when I did some metal work on an alloy LWB Cal comp, only to meet Bill late the same afternoon-while he too was working on steering of one of the 3 other "big tank"only 4 of them-alloy comp LWB cals!...pretty weird, but is "way back then".
    This car is better than sound...I use the same interior guy for my stuff-when he's not doing stuff for the guys in Portland, or in Santa Cruz-so THAT is incredible work...the car is a stud...If I had known of this car, would've bought it-period.

    This was one of the score deals of the weekend....of all the GTCs being shopped at the 7-900 range, this one is worthy of this altitude, in my opinion...

    From what I know, and knowing Bill(was an engineer at Fairchild when not a Ferrari guy), this was a good to a great car, possibly only lacking in deatil stuff that could be remedied with the appropriate expenditures...man, am I bummed....NOBODY likes leaving 200K on the table....nobody...snooze, you lose....
     

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