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Monterey auction time

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by Timmmmmmmmmmy, Jul 16, 2013.

  1. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
    7,474
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
    Are you aware that an 'auction house' is legally entitled to bid up to the reserve price? I do not know if the 'house' did that in this particular auction.
     
  2. bighitter2

    bighitter2 Formula Junior

    May 7, 2005
    448
    virginia usa
    Full Name:
    chuck coli
    thank you for that bit of info, sure makes the real buyer/bidder at a bit of a disadvantage in my opinion
     
  3. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2008
    41,186
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    David
    It's not a secret but its not publicized either.

    Auctions are exciting and seductive but you do need to know where the rocks are.
     
  4. Zarathustra

    Zarathustra Formula Junior

    May 7, 2006
    747
    Hawaii
    Full Name:
    Gary Robinson
    Bonhams - August 16th @ Quail Lodge
    Bonhams 1793 : Quail Lodge Auction

    Ferrari
    1971 Ferrari 365 GTB/4 #14233 Est. US$450,000 - 550,000 - Sold @ US$320k (Lot 140)


    The above post is in error. Should read:
    1971 Ferrari 365 GTB/4 #14233 Est. US$450,000 - 550,000 - Sold @ US$429k (Lot 140) inc. premium.
     
  5. jnk

    jnk Formula Junior

    Nov 12, 2010
    307
    the high bid was $700,000.00 for the alloy conversion Daytona
     
  6. Daytonafan

    Daytonafan F1 Rookie

    Oct 18, 2003
    2,677
    Surrey, England
    Full Name:
    Matthew
    $700k sounds crazy money for a Daytona conversion in current market yet alone $885k!
     
  7. TTR

    TTR Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 29, 2007
    2,362
    Riverside, CA
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    Timo
    Glad we agree. (See posts 341/358)
     
  8. bighitter2

    bighitter2 Formula Junior

    May 7, 2005
    448
    virginia usa
    Full Name:
    chuck coli
    As with any of these Enzo era cars it seems condition or quality of a car can strongly effect price. Surely there is someone in this forum that took a close look at this car? If so can you tell us what kind of condition it was in?
     
  9. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2007
    889
    Same car though unless you think that you bought it from John Collins add value...but surely more expensive that at the auction,,,although he may have bid against you to ensure you give up or overpay. So if you are the under bidder, you ultimately give up..and then buy it from them at a premium. So you pay a premium to Gooding or RM and then a premium to the dealer that buys at auction.. Not a bad business model for them though, unless the market goes the other direction...
     
  10. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2007
    889
    Unless they restore the Levegh Le Mans 1955 300SLR, I guess highest killer in post war history! Ahead of Portago Ferrari.
     
  11. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Honorary

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    #386 Napolis, Aug 24, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2013
    True, their (Not Gooding who were very forthright) lack of disclosure is pretty pathetic but if someone's stupid enough to buy it without doing serious research that's what Darwin's for.

    The funniest part is mentioning the "Massini Report" without disclosing as Gooding did exactly what it states was left of the car after it killed and maimed.

    I'd like to know what venues will invite it to race with it's 250 Engine and what prestigious concours will welcome it with open arms.

    Think Ferrari will Classiche it?

    LOL
     
  12. geno berns

    geno berns F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 26, 2006
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    Geno
    I knew this car had issues on a few levels, but for the estimate posted by Gooding I thought it was a bargain if sold within the range. It brought substantially more. How much more does John want for it? What would a story-free car with it's original power plant be worth? $6-$8MM?

    Geno
     
  13. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
    Honorary

    Jun 19, 2012
    1,247
    Geno: I inspected the TRC for a client. It appears to have the original frame and a correct TRC/250TR rear axle, though I do not know if it has the original to the car. The suspension appeared to be TRC, except for the tie rods, which were later 330. The engine was from a mid-range 250 GTE that had a inside plug chaincase grafted on. I could not find the #935 anywhere and do not know how they came up with that number to claim. The bodywork was pretty accurate, but of a heavier gauge alloy than the originals. The gearbox appeared to be from a PF Coupe before the overdrive units. Carbs were repros. Original or original style steering box and pedal assembly. Correct fuel tank and wheels. Brakes were drum and may have been the correct TRC version.

    Car was assembled about 25 years ago, used and not cared for. We planned to take it completely apart and freshen everything if we purchaed it.

    We also felt the car was a good buy in the estimate price range. It is welcome at Monterey and any other American vintage race I know of. With the price of 250TR's, this car would have been a good option to race and keep the 250 TR safe at home.

    I agree that a no stories orignal 500 TRC is a 6 million dollar car today.
     
  14. geno berns

    geno berns F1 Rookie
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    #389 geno berns, Aug 24, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thanks for the information. Did you rack the car for the inspection? So hard to do inspect a car at the action tent and with out having the time to cross-reference what you find. What a beautiful car, has to be a blast to drive with that beast of an engine.

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  15. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Would Monterey allow it to race with that engine?
     
  16. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Jun 19, 2012
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    Geno: Thankfully, I am still slender, so I just slithered under the car and used a flashlight. I am sure the chic dressed crowd was appalled, but that was their problem.
     
  17. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Jun 19, 2012
    1,247
    Napolis: Absolutely, Cris and Bruce would accept the car. A number of TRC's (at least two) ran V-12's in period.
     
  18. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    What's going to happen with this. Are original no stories cars going to be very rarely vintage raced as their value rises? No stories Vintage cars are multi, multi million dollar cars and moving higher for the time being. Is this effecting grids? Goodwood revival still seems to have hard racing with a mix of real and replicas. What so you think?
     
  19. John B

    John B Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    May 27, 2003
    1,544
    NJ
    I'll never forget Ed Davies and his daughter flogging the snot out of his 250 GTO and 166MM at VIR in the Ferrari Historic series about 8 years ago. They were very valuable cars then and it was fantastic to see them driven like they were meant to be.
     
  20. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    I'm wondering if we'll continue to see that or if cars with a lot of stories/much less valuable will become the norm.
     
  21. James_Woods

    James_Woods F1 World Champ

    May 17, 2006
    12,722
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    James K. Woods
    I really think that the less valuable recreations SHOULD become the norm for actual race usage (other than non-competitive parade or display use). It seems a shame to potentially badly damage or destroy something really historic just for some momentary fun.

    This debate is going on, incidentally, with the rare WW2 warbirds being modified and raced in venues like Reno...

    although, so far - none of the fans want to watch modern built-for-racing airplanes in the major events.
     
  22. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
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    Aug 13, 2002
    3,703
    Santa Fe, NM
    #397 Bryanp, Aug 24, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    My father fervently believes in the stewardship aspects of his ownership of 0556(0446)MD. He will never race it in a competitive, wheel-to-wheel event (the last time was in 1967). Having it on the track in 8/10s conditions w/ a little drifting allows folks to see and hear the car in its natural habitat. We are in the very fortunate position to have a race car still containing the vast majority of its original metal, and any damage to that metal for the sake of a weekend warrior trophy would be destroying that period history - an act so foolhardy in my opinion that it borders on criminal.

    I am constantly amazed at the attitude I hear in this forum that since they are race cars and were probably repaired/re-bodied back in the day, that continuing to crash them now, many decades after winning actually mattered, is just fine. In my view, there is an enormous difference between period repairs performed by Ferrari's race teams or Scaglietti, and a modern day repair - history lost. So long as this mentality prevails, we will never put our car at risk in a field of weekend warriors.

    P.S., I am attempting to make a short movie - give me a few months. . . .
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  23. James_Woods

    James_Woods F1 World Champ

    May 17, 2006
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    Absolutely.
     
  24. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Honorary

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    I agree with you and have never nor will ever Vintage Race any of my cars. I do real race (not as a driver) my modern cars but once that real racing is over that it. It's an interesting issue and everyone makes their own stew. Once pure replica's are allowed to race against real cars as they are today I'm not sure exactly what "Vintage Racing" really is, means or proves.

    There's also the issue of safety. Two were killed yesterday in Germany in a Vintage Rally Race. Modern race cars are a LOT safer than Vintage ones. If I'm going to auger in I'd much rather be in P 4/5 C than 002.

    Interesting comments on the particular car in question. Personally I think it should be stripped back to it's original chassis, fitted with a period correct engine and other components and a period correctly made body and used on road trips and parade laps. The guys in Modena could do it but I understand that someone who wants to Vintage race with something that isn't an ultra valuable original car would be interested in it as it is for a price. I do feel that the current disclosure/description (not Goodings) is pathetic and misleading.
     
  25. Terra

    Terra Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 16, 2004
    1,969
    Actually, Leslie Davies is Ed's wife (not his daughter).
     

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