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Mondial T engine in major

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by Rupp3r, Dec 23, 2018.

  1. docmirror

    docmirror Formula Junior

    May 6, 2004
    772
    Ft Worth TX
    You asked for the 'correct' procedure to set/correct the timing on these cams. I have an alternate procedure that you may want to consider. If you are open to doing the job without removing the engine, it might save you time and effort, or - if you like feel free to ignore and do the job by the workshop manual. Note this is fraught with peril if you eff it up. Proceed with due caution.

    1. Set the engine at TDC on the crank. From now until the end of the procedure, it will NOT move at all.
    2. Check the cam ticks are near or lined up. For each of the cams needing adjustment ONLY, loosen the cam lock bolt on the end of the cam(s). For the cam(s) which are lined up with the ticks, do not loosen the end nut.
    3. Remove all cam/valve covers. (you need to do this anyway for valve lash)
    4. For cams which are lined up and do not need adjustment: A) Remove a cam journal cap. B) Place a small match cover cardboard on the journal. C) Replace the cam journal, crushing the thin cardboard, but do not torque the bolts! Gentle pressure will do here. These cams will never move until the end of the procedure.
    5. Loosen the tensioner bolt, and slide the belt off now. The cams which need adjustment may move due to spring moving the lobe, don't worry about it right now.
    6. For cams which require adjustment: A) Remove a cam journal cap, as in step 4. B) carefully rotate the cam in the shortest direction so that the ticks are now lined up with the front journal cap(as in your picture). C) With the ticks lined up, place the matchbook cardboard on the journal, then place the journal cap on, trapping the cardboard. D) Gently tighten the journal cap bolts to lock the cam in place at the correct timed position.
    7. Verify now that: The crank is at TDC: All four cams are locked with cardboard at the correct timing ticks.
    8. Remove the cam end bolts of the cams which need adjustment. Gently pry the timing gears from those cams only. The ones that don't need adjustment remain in place.
    9. Now is the time to replace the tensioner, and any guide roller bearings as req.
    10. Begin to thread the new belt. Start on the crank timing gear. Use 3 or 4 of those black small paper binder clasps to secure the belt to the crank timing gear. The pinch clasps will keep the belt on the gear, and not damage the belt.
    11. Thread the belt clockwise, so that the tensioner is the last thing you will thread the belt around.
    12. ** Tricky steps!! **
    13. With the slack taken out of the belt, at each location where the cam gear is removed: A) Rotate the cam gear on the end of the cam so that the alignment pin, and offset hole(s)(seen in your pic) line up so there is tension on the belt from the previous gear/roller. You may need to test several combos before getting it just right. In some cases, you can't take 100% of the slack out of the belt. Get it as tight as possible. Put the cam gear washer and bolt on once the belt is threaded and put a small amount of torque on it. Final torque will be done later.
    14. Set the tension with the tension roller per book value. This will be reset again at a later step.
    15. Check the tick marks, all should still be lined up.
    16. For ALL FOUR CAMS: A) Remove cam journal cap which has the cardboard under. B) Remove the cardboard. C) Install the journal cap, and torque.
    17. Check tick marks. If you kept tension on the belt during your adjustment of the gears, all the ticks should be on or very close together.
    18. Reset the tensioner setting now to book value.
    19. Verify you have all four cardboard pieces removed. Remove the paper binder clasps from crank gear. Rotate the crank bolt two full revolutions.
    20. Re-check tick marks.
    21. Re-check timing ticks.
    22. Torque cam gear bolts to factory setting.
     
  2. Rupp3r

    Rupp3r Karting

    Aug 26, 2016
    143
    France
    Hello

    Thanks docmirror for your procedure.
    WIll have a look at it but I have still long way to go before doing this!!

    Update from the work.

    For finding the TDC I used a TDC indicator, but when I saw the price for the "Ferrari" TDC indicator I went crazy so I took benefit of buying two TDC indicator when doing my Alfa Romeo V6 belt with M14 plugs and then I machined one fitting to M12 to get a cost effective M12 TDC indicator...

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    I was fearing of not beeing able to look at the gauge when rotating the crank from underneath but it was not an issue:

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    I had the feeling the belt was not enough tight since it was moving a lot when I was rotating the crank, but maybe it is its nominal tension?

    Then I must say thanks to ernie for its amazing major thread which is making this job really affordable..!
    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/348-engine-out-major.438576/page-1

    I loosened the retaining bolt and managed to find a boss on the WP body to lever the tensioner using a screwdriver and not forcing on the WP shaft..

    I lost sometime trying to remove the belt using my hand force but it is just too hard..!!

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    And here we go:

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    Then I removed the tensioner, and as I read I was careful when undoing the nuts because the spring will pop the tensioner!!

    Yes, will put some brake cleaner when it will be done to wash it and I will have to redo my cam covers :)

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    A little look at the tensioner, the WP and the idler tracks...:

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    It is harsh... belt rubber on all the tracks and the WP and idler are damn rusty... Hard to think the WP has been replaced during the last major I want to say..
    The idler has some play in it.

    And also a broken rear belt cover:

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    Then I tried to pull the idler bearing but sadly I haven't received the small puller I ordered.
    I tried with something quickly made but hasn't made it.

    I hope that it will come off without issue and that there is not a hidden reason why it hasn't been replaced during the last major.. Its retaining bolt is all rusty. :confused:

    This will be a step that will be more difficult with the engine in situ, because most of the bearing pullers have a long pressure bolt and I may have to cut it if it don't pass (I have around 8cm available in front of the bearing) but should do it...



    Ok now according to the french translation I will set the cat amongst the pigeons.. :D

    I don't feel play in the the timing pulley driving shaft but since I don't have the history on this car, I have seen a lot of bad things and I am hearing a bearing noise in the engine (since my gearbox is fine) I was hoping to be able to remove the front cover in situ to do the timing driving bearings+chain guides.

    From all I see this can definitely be done in situ. I think I will have to raise the engine by 2cm to clear the front cover but I have already raised it more to clear the crank pulley.

    I have removed the alternator and started to remove the power steering pump (I am not sure what is the correct procedure to do it, to remove it from its front and rear brackets or to remove these brackets from the engine?)...

    According to you is there a reason that make this operation undoable? (again I don't care if I speed twice more time or so on..!!!)



    Sadly next work update in three weeks... :(
     
  3. yelcab

    yelcab F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    9,513
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    Cat among the chickens = fox in the hen house
     
  4. Rupp3r

    Rupp3r Karting

    Aug 26, 2016
    143
    France
    Well here we go:

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    I just now need to remove the bearing, which is sadly already a ball bearing..!

    So I hope the noise I was getting was coming from the dead belt idler.

    I will be short using a standard hammer puller but should be fine using one with a beam.

    I found some pieces of pad in the oil sump and at the entry of the pump filter because of these:

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    I plan on removing them by ordering directly the references 147338 and 185577 because I don't think there is any alternative?

    Regarding the oil chain tensioner, I should be getting something like this?

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    https://www.ricambiamerica.com/185577-chain-tightener.html

    I assume I should receive the assembly like that and it is a kind of plug and play tensioner?

    Would you advise me to chain the chains also?

    I have just discovered that later 3.4 have an additionnal guide for reducing the noise which mine don't have and I can't fit it since I don't have the threads in the block..
    https://www.ricambiamerica.com/143782-guide.html
     
  5. Rupp3r

    Rupp3r Karting

    Aug 26, 2016
    143
    France
    Hello

    Finally after 9 months of work I have started again the V8!

    This is a very long time you will tell me but I have been working on my car only during two/three week ends per months and I always take a lot of time to to make things properly.

    What have I been able to change engine in:
    -timing belt
    -idler+tensioner bearings (HE)
    -water pump (upgraded)
    -water pump coolant hoses (the big green one and the small black one)
    -timing chain tensioner pad
    -timing chain
    -timing drive front (HE) and rear bearing
    -upgraded oil tensioner assembly (F360)
    -front crank seal
    -camshafts seal
    -lots of small stuff

    So I have been able to change everything that you would call a true major service without dropping the engine.

    If I had to do it again I will do it again the same way and I would honestly advice anyone to do it because I can't see how if could be quicker to drop the engine.

    If you only want to change the belt you don't have to mess with lifting the engine as I did and it is really quick.
    If you want to pull the front cover, you have to drop the powertrain and then lift all the cradle to be able to work under it or separate the engine from it which will be really time consuming.

    Regarding the difficulties, I would say:
    -need to have a very compact bearng puller for pulling the timing belt idler, when you have the good puller it is easy
    -need to use an impact wrench+joint socket to crack the timing drive nut
    -need to remove one stud from the engine cover/block to be able to pull it, then it goes fine
    -I think it would still be hard to be able to unpin the cam when the tension is put on it with the engine out so I haven't tried a lot to unpin and found a way to time my belt fine but I would say this is the only thing that can't be really done this way
    -I had to remove the intake manifold to change the water pump hoses and to put back the water pump but I don't think I would have managed it without removing the intake even with the engine sitting in front of me..

    I can put some pictures if interested..
     
  6. yelcab

    yelcab F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    9,513
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    While I admire your skills in doing all these things with the engine in, I find your argument unconvincing when the job took you 9 months to complete. However, it is your car, your time, your method and you should do it anyway you like. I am in the camp of always taking the engine out.
     
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  7. Rupp3r

    Rupp3r Karting

    Aug 26, 2016
    143
    France
    Yes of course the fact that I took 9 months to do this is not making this convincing, but this has nothing to do with the engine in method and I am sure I would have spend more time taking the engine out.

    As I said I was only able to work on it a few days per months, and I lost a crazy amount of time since I am over thinking a lot of stupid stuff, like I maybe lost 1 month (so only a few days of work!) with cleaning the inside of my camshafts.. :D

    But yes everyone do it like he wants, but I just want to say: if there is anyone like me who is afraid of taking the engine out because of the handling side of the job or if it is really a no go for a potentiel Mondial T buyer: no it can be done :)
     
  8. spicedriver

    spicedriver Formula 3

    Feb 1, 2011
    1,656
    The Mondial was the first car that Ferrari designed with a split frame to allow easy engine removal. You don't need a lift. Fabricate a small engine stand that sits close to the ground. This can simply be a 2x4 wood square with steel wheels. Remove the rear wheels and lower the car on to the stand. The manual details what you need to disconnect. Then simply raise the car with an inexpensive bottle jack on either side. The power unit rolls right out.

    Consider that you're actually supposed to be changing the belts every 3 years.
     
  9. JLF

    JLF Formula Junior

    Sep 8, 2009
    969
    Dallas
    Full Name:
    JERRY
    I would have to remove the engine because, it’s a great opportunity to clean everything, and make it all look like new. It took me 8 hours to remove my 911 engine the first time I did it. In the grand scheme of things that’s nothing. But I’m glad you got it done congrats!
    If someone wants to do it with the engine in the car they now know it can be done.
     
  10. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Lifetime Rossa

    Nov 19, 2001
    21,918
    The Brickyard
    Full Name:
    The Bad Guy
    The way I do it, and what is says in the shop manual, is put the #1 piston on top dead center, then line up the cam marks to the marks on the cam caps.
     
  11. yelcab

    yelcab F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    9,513
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    And then the shop manual goes into the degree wheel, and cam lift overlap values and etc.... so you do that too.
     
  12. spicedriver

    spicedriver Formula 3

    Feb 1, 2011
    1,656
    I was able to remove mine without a lift.

    1. Fabricate an engine stand with wheels. Make it to fit the rear frame section and as low to the ground as possible. I made mine out of wood 2x4s and little steel wheels.

    2. Remove the rear wheels and lower the rear of the car onto the stand with your floor jack.

    3. Disconnect everything required. My service manual had a checklist.

    4. Use bottle jacks on either side of the chassis to lift it up higher than the engine assembly.

    5. Simply roll the engine assembly out.
     
  13. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Lifetime Rossa

    Nov 19, 2001
    21,918
    The Brickyard
    Full Name:
    The Bad Guy
    #38 ernie, Jan 18, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
    It does, and I have.
    Because of that I know that the cam marks on my f119 are dead nuts on the money. No need for me to keep checking, and re-checking, timing and re-timing the cams because the marks are spot on. So going forward all I have to do is TDC #1, put the cams on the marks, and I am good to go. Matter of fact I have yet to see or even hear of a set of f119 cam marks that are not dead nuts accurate. I can't speak for any other engine, but from what I have seen whomever at the factory that was responsible for marking the cams & caps on the f119 did a perfect job. You have done plenty of engine out majors Mitch so you know what I'm saying is true for the f119.

    Now that doesn't mean that the cam timing won't change over time as the belt stretches, or that the initial timing was done incorrectly. But when the #1 cylinder has been put spot on top dead center and the cams exactly on the marks, every single time the cam time has been perfect, EVERY time. That has been my experience.
     
  14. yelcab

    yelcab F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    9,513
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    And you find TDC by eyeballing it, a chop stick, a TDC finder, or a degree wheel with a dial indicator?
     
  15. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Lifetime Rossa

    Nov 19, 2001
    21,918
    The Brickyard
    Full Name:
    The Bad Guy
    #40 ernie, Jan 18, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
    Piston stop is the quickest and easiest way and what I used the last time I helped with timing a f119. A dial indicator with a degree wheel is what I used previously.
     

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