Mondial t Coupe with Valeo - collectability

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dave

 

Hello dave! Thank you for confirming what I was saying. This a is plain and direct explanation from Ferrari's official web site. The "VALEO" automatic clutch was not a option rejected by buyers. It was a prototype being tested in the Mondial t. It was not even a option a buyer could order. It's not a oddball or an orphan. Unless you consider all prototypes being that. In Ferrari's own words it played a part in "one of the most important F1 technological transfers" to its modern production cars. Thanks to your research, any one visiting this thread can now go to the www.ferrari.com site and see exactly what this car was all about and its place in Ferrari history. Keep up the education on these rare and special cars. They are finally getting the interest in the real Ferrari community they deserve. If you have one take good care of it. I think it will do the same for you.

GDR

 

I love the Mondial (and I've owned two including a t), and the Valeo system is fascinating and I bet one day will prove collectable. Come back another 15 years from now, this odd-ball system will prove in demand.

However, the Valeo system was in fact abandoned. It was a test piece at best. It was never introduced in the 348; 355; or even the 456. It would be 5 years until the F1 debuted on a production car, showing that the Valeo never gained much traction.

And the reason you don't hear of many failures is because there are so few in existence. When you have a couple dozen Valeo Mondial ts vs. well over a 2600 355s with an F1 system, of course you're going to hear more about the F1 vs. the Valeo.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not here to pick on the car or the system, but it wasn't a success beyond a test-market piece.

 

I appreciate your comments and it is clear from your post that your comments are not made to disrespect the system.

If we can't have a lively debate here, than we might as well stick to the technical section.. Personally, I have no issue with somebody disliking Mondials, Valeos, etc. I don't need public approval for my life choices. However, there is a way to communicate without being offensive or simply rude. I wish more people could voice their opinion like you did, and less like our new "consultant"

FWIW, I think we are both saying kind of the same thing. As noted by another poster above, it was the first iteration. The concept was not abandoned but superseded, apparently it was a test bed for the automated manual transmission. The next iteration would be the F1 system. In fact, I read somewhere that there was a Mondial T prototype fitted with the F1 system, though none were ever sold to the public as far as I know. Although it had a much shorter lifespan, I compare the valeo systems relationship to the F1 system as I do the F1 system to the double clutch system.

 

Is it possible Ferrari abandoned it for other reasons? On Ferrari's website they write about the Mondial t Valeo without actually using the word Valeo. It seems likely that they wanted to develop their own system before offering it as an option. It would make sense to test the waters with an existing system before investing in the R & D. From that standpoint the t Valeo would have been a complete success. A French system that improved a Ferrari might not be what they had in mind for the long term.

dave

 

Sorry there are a lot more than a couple of dozen plus there is an f 40 and a testarossa. There are approx 50 plus others we know of. I have spoken at length with one of the ferrari dealers who at the tome in the early 90 was given a mondial t to test in the hong kong area and he advised that the system was fantastic it was not long after that it was introduced to the mondial t as an option. It was written about and filmed in the UK press and if you care to look you can see the actual road test by a female of a brown metallic convertible, she gives it a majot wrap. It was just unfortunate that Ferrari abandoned the Mondial as a model mid 90's and had no replacement until the 456 and because of U>S> demand bucled and produced a v12

 

Sorry the number 50, or even 100 pales in comparison to over 2500 F1 systems. Pure fact.

 

Actually, numbers may be factual but whether one "pales" in comparison to another is pure OPINION. Further opinion may be drawn as to whether the relative rarity causes something to be desirable or despicable.

In short, I purchased my T Valeo with my hard earned money because I wanted it more than any other option available to me at that time, including the option to save or spend on something else. This thread is about collectability and I have absolutely no opinion on that as I bought to have and drive and not with any eye toward resale.

I respect that some may have an opinion one way or another as to collectability and this is the forum to express those opinions. I don't think this is the forum to berate the car. If you want to knock it, maybe you need to start a different website and hang out there.

Regards,

db

 

David,
Unlike our "consultant", If you re-read Jet-X's earlier post, he clearly wasn't berating the car. His second post, taken out of context, may seem harsh, but he was merely emphasizing a point regarding the relative scarcity of the Valeo vs. the F1 system.

Arguing whether the Valeo system was abandoned or superseded is a question of semantics to me, but clearly others disagree.

IMHO, time WILL prove the Valeo collectable. One day ALL Ferraris will have automated manuals. Some collectors may want to look back to the car that started it all to complete their collection. Even if they look at it as quirky or whatever.

Personally, it is a car I definitely want to add to my garage at some point. If there are 100 more of me world wide, demand will far outstrip supply!

 

You're missing the point - my point was in relation to the 'reliability' of said system vs. the suggestion that the F1 system on 355 is problematic. What "pales" in comparison is the production quantity - not the system itself.

There were comments in this thread that the F1 system is very unreliable and lots of complaints. When you have 2500+ cars with this system running around, you're going to hear more about it, especially on FCHAT. When you have 50+ cars with another system, you're not going to hear as much about it because there are fewer cars with said system.

So before attacking my post - read it thoroughly and not from some fanboy perspective. That's not what I was writing towards.

 

Thanks Joe...turns out I was writing my reply when you were finishing yours, so we crossed paths.

Additionally, as stated in my initial post, I love the Mondial and have owned two.

 

Hi..Well it seems my assining post got some people thinking..and that was the point. Sometimes people need a little does of reality when dealing with such odd ball systems, on low production cars.

I must warn you that there is hardly any info availble for the system from Ferrari themselves, and I'll bet even they would have a hard time figuring one out that has issues.

The Mondial is a great machine, I like them, fun to drive, sound great, and well you can (somewhat) carry 4 people.

That said, we are NOT dealing with a 250GTO with a one off transmission. We are dealing with at best a 25k car, with a transmission that is an anomoly in the Ferrari world. Add that to the fact the Mondail is not the highest of produced cars (compaired to say a Porsche 911) with a rare and confusing system to boot.

I would hate to see you in a losing battle with this car..and no matter what people say, money will always be an issue.

Either way you go..enjoy the journey and most of all have fun!

 

$25K? "at best"? Silly.

A $25k Mondial t valeo coupe would be the anomaly you speak of. And compared to a Porsche 911 the Mondial t coupe is limited production but parts are still available for both models (I have both and have not had any issues with parts for either).

The Valeo is not particularly difficult, its finding people that have the education about them that seems to be.

 

1992 Mondial T cabriolet with the Valeo Transmission with 66,830kms listed at $54,900 at Humberview Motorsports in Toronto.

 

Gentlemen -

Nice of each of you to re-cast your earlier comments in an attempt to seize some form of middle or higher ground. As I see it, both of you made disparaging comments about the "oddball" valeo-equipped Monidal (whether you profess to like the car or not) and I call bs on you and anyone else who feels the need to berate a particular model or submodel, whether to stoke your ego or otherwise.

There are several high-end cars, Ferrari and otherwise, I would not have in my driveway under any circumstances I can conceive of because I just don't like them and, while I will be happy to tell you why I prefer my Mondial over such models, you will never hear me belittle or berate those models here or elsewhere. You can look on OSO, WERA, and other boards and see the same goes there - I don't tell Formula owners their boat is cr*p because it is not a Cigarette and I don't tell guys who ride rice their bike s*ks because it is not a Ducati, etc., etc., all because, while I can rattle off dozens of technical reasons that support an assertion that such statements would be true, it doesn't advance the conversation, make me a better man, or win me a friend, it only serves to tear someone else down.

None of this is to say that one cannot differentate - nothing wrong with saying the Valeo was experimental or a form of prototype that did not go into or remain in full production with Ferrari. Of course it was supersceded (sp?) - everything is. Also nothing wrong with pointing out to someone considering a purchase that getting experienced service may be somewhat of a challenge and should be considered (I think I was pointing that out when I ignorantly waded into this). Each of us can similarly point out the known challenges for many models to anyone that inquires, several of which have been mentioned in this thread, without resorting to degrading language.

Perhaps my problem is that I expect a more refined and considerate discussion given the topic but am casting my pearls given that this is the internet. If that is the case, so be it, but I think we all stand to lose the opportunity to interact with more people who would be interesting and would have something to contribute but for all the off-putting.

My $0.02.

Regards,

db

 

All I can say is you need to learn how to read - you're the only one that took what I wrote as disparging. Even Joe chimed in and understood what I was saying, and I'm not sure how much clearer it could have been made.

So before you write some nasty ass post directing it at multiple people, you ought practice what you preach in regards to the "higher" ground you seem hell bent on grabbing. I have no horse in this race.

And for you to just assume that what I wrote was basically along the lines of telling Valeo owners their car is crap, well, you need to get your head examined. Someone clearly has a self esteem issue about their car, and in this thread, that person seems to be you.

I don't appreciate having what I wrote (and unedited) twisted into something it is not.

 

Me personally, well - - I'm just thrilled that the "consultant" got some people thinking - me included. I don't know what we all would have done without his enlightenment

$25,000 at best.............go to bed - and do some reading.

 

I agree with you that money will always be an issue with people who have money issues. IMHO those people should not buy one of these cars or ANY FERRARI for that matter. As far as there hardly being any info available, the Ferrari workshop manual for this car has 30 pages (D-56 thru D-85) giving very detailed information on how to work on the system plus an additional 16 pages of diagnostic information. The shop that maintains my car had no nor sees no problems working on it. They just replaced my clutch and reset and calibrated the system with the SD-1 System they had access to. My mechanic, who by the way knows what he's doing, had no problem with it, told me he liked it, and could do more with it than the F1. He was kind enough to send me the 46 pages for my reading pleasure. I've enjoyed this car fo 18 years and like it more today than when I bought it. Unfortunately, it seems like there is a lot of Ferrari "mechanics", many of which work for the dealerships, who are just not qualified or talented enough to work on these cars. That has been the primary cause for the bad reliability reputation all Ferraris have. Instead of just getting people "thinking" or scared to death about what they just purchased, it would be so much better to educate them with information from experienced owners and the mechanics that have worked on them.

 

You made some great points. It may sound crass, but if you cannot afford to properly maintain a Ferrari, you shouldn't have one. Nobody has yet to convince me that any problem unique to the Valeo is any more expensive than any number of potential failures on the beloved 355.

As for difficulty working on these cars. With the right equipment, a Master Ferrari tech should be able to tackle it. Indeed, Tony, the Master Tech at Algar Ferrari has tools and diagnostic equipment for just about every Ferrari every made, and has manufactured a few himself. I imagine other dealers have held on to the old equipment and manuals as well, to say nothing of our in house legends like Dave Helms.

Finally, the Valeo system can't be nearly as difficult to tackle as the rear window failures on our Mondial cabs ---and that hasn't stopped anybody from buying our cars!

 

JoeZaff,

Very well put! I'm going to bed now.

Goodnight,

George

 

However, the Valeo system was in fact abandoned. It was a test piece at best. It was never introduced in the 348; 355; or even the 456. It would be 5 years until the F1 debuted on a production car, showing that the Valeo never gained much traction.

Not quite right Jetx.
Per Wikipedia
In 1997 the Formula One style paddle gear shift electrohydraulic manual transmission was introduced with the Ferrari 355 F1[1] (note the dropping of the F before the 355) adding £6,000 to the dealer asking price.

The Mondial T valeo was sold into 1994 and the 355fi was available from 1996 delivered 1997 a 3 year difference less if you count the development phase. It was not a "Test Piece" it was produced in numbers that could have allowed it to be homologated. It was a production vehicle and a reliable one at that.
Having not owned one ie You, please consider your comments prior to writing as I do not consider myself nor Hank Sound "Fanboys" we are just lucky enough to drive an exceptionally well designed system that keeps the thrill in manual driving without the tiresome left leg clutch pushing.I challenge any manual driver to do a hill start better than I can in the MondialT Valeo.

 

Whether it was abandoned, superseded, forgotten, etc is really of no moment.

The Valeo is an extremely rare bird. The merits of the design have been described repeatedly and, if ease of maintenance were not to be considered, few could argue the genius of the design and its usability.

Before we get to sidetracked here. The initial question was whether the Valeo will be considered collectable or not.

I believe it will be for the reasons I set forth earlier. It is clear that others believe that the perceived difficulty in maintaining and repairing the system in the future will be an impediment to its collectability as will the alleged perception that the Mondial itself will never be collectable.

Both are fair points in my estimation, though regrettably, our "consultant" chose to express his position with far less tact that one could hope to expect.

 

If you want to have a semantics debate we can. Wikipedia is not an authority and in fact contains lots of (user generated) errors. There were no 1994 model year Mondial t cars. I challenge you to find and photograph a build plate that supports that. Last chassis number is 97733.

Same with the F355 I have seen no 1997 model years for the F1 system.

And no where in any of my posts did I say the Valeo equipped cars were not good, nor not collectible. That goes to another poster. But right now, Valeos aren't bringing substantial price increases over non Valeo cars.

But I do believe in 15 years is when they will increase substantially in value.

 

You should perhaps read more carefully seeing you are so strung up on semantics, I stated that the Mondial T valeo was sold (sold) into the 1994 and I remember a post that showed a New mondial T being delivered in 1996. I did not say built into 1994.
As to collectability... who knows I am looking for a 1 legged man to buy mine.

 

I'll take that bet, but I want a 10 year old kid to judge. I'll easily win in a cloud of tire and clutch smoke...

Dave