Mondial 3.2 vs T

I will try to answer your questions in order:

1. First, no mattter how good a car you think you are getting, you always have to budget for the unexpected, after all, these cars are at least 17 years old. So if you can buy a 45K car and still have a nice chunk of change put aside for surprises (Personally I think 5K is a minimum- I put aside 10K), then do it. The best Mondial 3.2 cab on the market right now IMHO is Birddog's, which has an asking price of 39K, (check Ferrari ads). 45K will get you in a really nice Mondial T, but the best ones may be a little higher (I don't subscribe to the ebat theory when it comes to Ferraris, IMHO, some of the best cars are not sold through ebay, and the sellers are not in a rush to sell and will eventually get a price appropriate to their cars condition)

2. Service intervals- Brian Crall (Rifledriver), Dave Helms, and Tony at Algar all recommend 3 year service intervals for belts and bearings. These guys are the best in the business by most accounts. You can listen to them, or you can listen to anecdotal evidence from this board and others. I chose to go with them. Other than that, the maintenance is well covered and you can probably use searches to find most of what you are looking for. As for what you can realistically perform, it depends on your competence and tools. More Ferraris have been ruined by shadetree mechanics then saved IMHO. Also, if you are getting a T, you are going to need remove the engine to do the belts, which creates its own logistical challenges. Most people will tell you, that if you are looking for a Mondial with ease of maintenance, the 3.2 is the way to go.


3. Electrical issues can usually be traced to the fusebox or bad contacts. The fusebox can be replaced with new and better versions if required and contacts are easily cleaned. I have had no electrical problems with my car whatsoever, and my cars complete 22 year service history does not reflect any problems either. The real problem with the electrical systems is when problems do arise, shadetree mechanics either jerry rig a work around or a mechanic does some "clever rewiring" Inevitably, these cause other problems and when it is time to actually fix it the right way, the real technician has a diagnostic nightmare to deal with.

4. High mileage v. low mileage- I don't buy the high mileage vs. low mileage thing. It really depends on how the car was cared for. I bought my Mondial 3.2 cab with 15K--documented miles, on the clock. Mechanically, I have been repeatedly told that it is the nicest Mondial my mechanic has ever seen. Why, because the car was well maintained and stored in a climate controlled environment. By contrast, there are other low mileage Ferraris that have sat, have not been maintained, and are now in horrible condition with bad hoses, rusting mechanicals, but pretty paint! Get the car in the best condition possible. Mileage should not be a factor---condition should.

5. Comfort- The mondial 3.2 has what appear to be narrower seats than the T. I have never done a direct comparision between the two, but the seats are definitely different. My 6'7 240lb buddy has no problem driving around in my car.

6. Sunroofs seem to fail with regularity. I seldom see a sunroof car for sale with a working top. The Cabriolet has terrible latches (for which there is now a proper aftermarket fix). However, if the rear windows fail (which can occur), it can be a very expensive repair. These are known problem areas, but every Ferrari has its own quirks!

7. Color- GET BLACK

8. Insurance- IMHO, agreed value is the only way to go. I have no interest in fighting with some 22 year old appraiser about what my Ferrari is worth. I use Hagerty, I pay an absurdly low amount in insurance, have all the bells and whistles and an agreed value which is fair and appropriate.


9. Where are the good cars hiding? ---BIRDDOG, BIRDDOG, BIRDDOG. If I were in the market for another Mondial Cab, his car would be on a truck to my house right now! http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vbclassified.php?do=ad&id=2148


GOOD LUCK! Hope to have you in the club soon!

 

Great questions Tom, here's my $0.02:

Service frequency and costs: Ferrari of North America and my local Ferrari dealer (Continental Autosports, Hinsdale, IL) recommends a full fluids change every year and a belt service every 5 years on both the 3.2 and the T. If you're handy, you can do the annual fluid service yourself and even change the brake pads and rotors as needed. However, it is nice to have someone go over the car to check for anything you might have missed, as these are aging cars and sometimes an experienced tech can discover a little problem before it becomes a big one. As for the 5-year belt service, you should count on having to replace the tensioner bearings and the water pump as well. The 3.2 service can be performed with the engine in the car, while the T must have the engine removed, which adds to the cost. The general "rule of thumb" is to budget $2,500 per year for these cars, whether you use it or not. That way you'll be funded for most of the expected repairs years down the road. However, these are aging Ferrari's, so there will unexpected repairs along the way. Owners generally try to do whatever work they can to reduce the cost, and the 3.2 lends itself to being a little easier to work on yourself.

electrical issues: I believe all Mondials can be subject to the fuseboard issues. In addition however, the 348 guys complain a lot about additional electrical gremlins in the sensors for the engine, which cause all sorts of running problems. Since the T shares the 348 engine, I can only assume they share the same problems. I've not had any fuseboard issues with my car, and I know of a few other owners that also have not had any problems. Some say it's only a matter of time, and if they're correct there is a new fuseboard in the works (maybe done by now) by a few f-chatters that should fix the problem.

high mileage vs low mileage: I thing the general thinking on this is that you don't want a car that has been allowed to "dry out" by sitting too much. A pattern of regular use and care is what I'd be looking for. I'd look for evidence that a car gets some miles put on it yearly and has a service history to show that it has been consistently cared for.

comfort: I haven't ever sat in a T, but the seat pans look a little wider and with less side bolsters. The seat backs on the T seem a little wider too, but maybe that's just in appearance. Sorry - can't really answer that one with any degree of certainty.

cabriolet top vs coupe sunroof: The cabriolet is great, but it is true that if you lose a rear window motor you're in for what I'm told can be a $1,500 repair. However, my wife's Tahoe just lost a front window motor to the tune of almost $400 at a reasonable independent shop, and it's only 5 years old. Can't comment on the sunroof.

color: If you can find a Grigio with Bordeaux interior you'll be a standout. White, yellow, blue, and silver are also rare. Nero with black does not seem to be as common as Nero with tan interior. Then there's the Rosso with Tan, which is the most common. It all depends on what you're into. This is a more "angular" car than curvy, so you may find you like a color on this one where you may not on a "curvier" car. I wanted a Rosso on Tan with original factory paint for my first Ferrari, so that's what I chose. Find what suits you. Color doesn't seem to affect resale unless you go into the "rarer" shades - which narrows the market a little.

Insurance: I went with agreed value with mileage restrictions (5k a year) with State Farm. A lot of folks seem to like Haggerty, but I checked with them and Progressive and they both seemed very sticky about not parking it outside at night (say at a B&B on a long trip) and only driving it to take it to a show or event. (At least the agents I talked to) Having those restrictions on my policy would make me uncomfortable, so I went with State Farm. They ask for a photo of the odometer every once in a while, but that's about it. Otherwise, they accepted the value I submitted with several pictures, and it's been no hassle since then.

what else have I forgotten? Styling, power steering, horsepower, ABS, metric wheels, seatbelts, adjustable suspensions. The T has a few more modern styling cues and bits (door handles, side vents, steering wheels, shifter stalk, etc.), where the 3.2 has a little more "vintage" feel. More "modern" vs. "vintage":

3.2 has a direct rack & pinion feel, while the T has the ease of power steering.

All T's have ABS, where only some of the '87 3.2's do and I believe all of the '88 3.2's do.

The 3.2 has a conventional independent suspension with Koni's/coilovers, where the T has an electronically adjustable suspension.

Most of the '86 Mondials have metric wheels that will only work with TRX tires, which aren't a very good tire and are quite expensive. However, you can switch wheels with an '87 or '88 Mondial and get rid of the metrics - or keep them for show.

The '90 and beyond T's have the "mouse on a track" automatic seat belts, where all of the 3.2's as well as the '89 T have conventional seat belts.

The T has 30 more ponies under the hood with it's 348 engine, but the 328's engine is reputed to me more reliable and easier to work on.

and where are the good cars hiding? Check www.ferrariads.com (items for sale top left on FerrariChat, the Ferrari Club of America newsletter, the Ferrari Market Letter if you have access to it, and also E-Bay just to get a full spectrum of what's out there. And don't forget you local dealer - they're not as evil as some folks think. (That's where I bought mine.)

As for specific cars, to be honest, I have a 3.2 for sale currently in ferrariads, and in the next FCA newsletter. However, I have done my best not to let that affect my answers to your questions. Others can correct me if I've missed anything or been anything but factual in my responses. There is also a nice Mondial T at Continental Autosports in Hinsdale, IL

In your state of FL (in Fort Lauderdale) at www.motorcargallery.com it looks like they have both a 3.2 and a T - might be worth checking out to at least see what you prefer. Best of luck to you, and I hope you find the Mondial you're looking for. They're absolutely wonderful cars!

 

Great response by Joe. I would only add that 3.2's are considered by many to be the best. They have a great engine, decent reliability (for a Ferrari) and better ease of service.
Still, a T has some good things going for it. Lowered a bit, stronger engine (3.4) and a nicer interior WITH POWER STEERING (no small thing).

 

Dang - Joe beat me to it and submitted a reply while I was writing mine (on and off between e-mails and everything else) Sorry for any duplication!

 

I've owned both. To make it simple, go with the 3.2.

 

Tom, I entered the Ferrari world a year ago through my purchase of a 1988 Mondial 3.2 Cabrio with 15K miles for 26K. Service records were vague to say the least, however I was exited about "gotta have my first Ferrari" this was reflected afterwards in almost 19K of repairs so far.
Engine out, engine gaskets replaced (due to oil leaks), A/C rebuilt, steering wheel switches replaced, and I can go on and on.
So my first advice is to purchase your car from a person who is willing to spend time to explain in the smallest detail what is the car condition and history. The longest it has been with (and used by) the seller the better. But stay away from some sellers who fiddle a lot in the car without the proper knowledge (it will cost you $$$ later). I agree with others about getting good cars from dealers (with some reservations on some)
I live in north NJ and Wide World of Cars service my car, and I discovered through my frequent visits that all models, years, and types have many issues, and the new ITALIA will have issues too, if not already.
I took the liberty to address your questions in a different order:

Color: (Exterior and Interior) Pininfarina did a wonderful styling exercise with the Mondial. It is the best 2+2 rear central engine design ever made. It is a difficult design by the way (see my note in the bottom) Dress this design in a color that you are comfortable with! Please your eye with its looks every time you drive it, polish it or explore it!

Cabriolet top vs coupe sunroof: I was eager to find a "rare" 89 T Coupe. Settled for the 3.2 Cabrio, and I just love to drive it (when I have the chance) top down or up. Though the exhaust sound is great, it took me a while and some Advil after each ride to get used to it.
Cabrio's are awesome! (Check the roof very well and the side pillars, mine had a torn pillar-$500+labor!, putting the roof up and down is an exercise that you need to practice with extreme patience!)

High mileage vs low mileage: What matters is how it was serviced. The material used in almost everything is not grade "A" material, therefore, the seller level of taking care of his car is essential. After you buy one, the more you use it, the more you enjoy it and the more you get used to it as a whole.

Electrical issues: Keep your battery charged all the time and do not hesitate to replace it. Batteries are about the cheapest part you can purchase for the car. I didn't get to the Fuse box replacement yet (I hope I never will)

Service frequency and costs: Yes, a significant amount relative to the purchase price. You pay more or less like what a 575 owner does (that is the most durable in Ferrari standards!) However, I believe in Florida you can pay lower rates.

Insurance: In NJ the insurance is high, but I pay the same amount like any other day to day car. In Florida should be less

Comfort: Ferrari's till the 355's are large Go-carts with a massive engine. They are as comfortable!
Note:
I borrowed a sketch from the “Mondial Z” thread showing how the Mondial chassis and dimensions are almost identical to the F430. The design was way ahead of its time!

Good luck and please do share your experience (and please don’t change your mind and buy a Maserati instead?!)
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I went through the same thing, and decided to buy a 3.2 over the T. Most of it comes down to personal preference, but here were my reasons:

1. The 3.2 is apparently the most reliable, bulletproof engine made by Ferrari (at least in the "modern" era, say, 80s up).

2. I specifically did NOT want ABS, power steering, electrically adjustable shocks, or any other complexity that I had a choice of not having. This was a huge factor for me.

3. Reading through the 348 board, I became very concerned about the reliability of the 348/Mondial T transaxle. It apparently has some issues that can result in a 5 figure repair. I didn't like that thought. Do some research and you can come to your own conclusion.

4. I like the exterior styling of the 3.2 much better. I don't really like the small rectangle air intake on the T, or the smoothed over fenders. (I do think the T interior is very nice, though!).

5. I drove both, and could not tell any power difference. Neither is super fast, and that's not my intended use anyways.

6. The 3.2 is easier to work on. The biggest diff, of course, is you don't have to take the 3.2 engine out to do a major. Things like the water pump - a 2 hour job on a 3.2 (probably less for a pro), an engine out ordeal on a T. Etc.

 

of the two, the older, non-T is easier to maintain both in mechanical needs and financial purse strings on the budget you mention: T will just, about, bust your budget on a well maintained T....assuming you don't pad out your yearly budget by a % over each year. PS: I would keep about 2-3k in the bank for the one-offs, which are yearly at times

Things to consider on the T
1. Leveling and suspension
2. ATC
3. FRONT WHEEL BEARINGS: shared with the F40, TRs, and 348 and did I mention they are about $800-1,100 each side, front. and no longer truly being made. Rears are a diff issue. Hoping Hill engr. makes them soon.
4. engine out service for water pump, and belts. prob. some other issues.
--both have Fuse box problems, but the T's are much more expensive, as I don't know if the 're-creation' project is actually done.
5. Seat Mice: but disconnecting them is easy.
6. Power assisted steering, not a big issue, but they do need more servicing over time = bigger expense.
7. I did, rewire most of my T and replace the fuse block, but, that was me in a case where I saw, ya' SMOKE one day: screw it, just rewire the sucker....block was toasty anyway.
8. mileage, IMO, not an issue. unless the car is REALLY old and you'll be needing shocks. Group here on the older 3x8 series came up with a paperweight solution that gave more options. Having mine, looked at today, and might need a rebuild...as of today, not a big issue, but might be a problem down the road.

No, I would not be bugged about that small diff on a T. Higher mileage means it's been used, and probably more on longer hauls, guessing. Got mine as a 15 year old car with < 11k miles. Now into the 40's and six years later.. Only benefit would be the leather is newer and the dust and cobwebs can be more easily seen on the less mileage car.

ya', that offset bugs me. Not sure it is much diff in older cars vs T.

don't know: are you concerned about the back seats for someone: none of them are stars for comfort, even in late model Ts. I only use it for the one off passenger and the almost always bags of groceries...kids tolerate it. grownups tolerate it, but only for < 5 miles.

not a big deal. You CAN get to the rear window, manually lower and the top will be good to take down. The top, up/down 'can' be a workout, but, I hardly ever put it up...when I do, it takes about 10 min. of mostly, trying to remember how the bars fold...once figured out, goes smoothly.

 

I believe the 3.2 uses the "thinner" front seat, which gives it more rear seat room than the T.

 

I have an 86 Mondial Cabriolet that I've owned for about 13 years. It's been a great car. No engine issues. The only real problem I've had in those years is the oil cooler cracked. Expensive part. My fault it broke. If the engine is hot, don't turn the key on to listen to the radio as the oil cooler fan will run.....without oil moving through it. I believe this to be the reason for the failure. Other than that ($750), I haven't had any mechanical failures. I know I'm going to catch !!?? for this, but I waited 10 years to do the major($6500). And when it was done, everything looked great. So the 3.2 Mondial has been a dream to own for me. As far as styling, I don't think the Cabriolet looks all that great with the top up. I live in Southern California, so just leave it down. But if your living somewhere where you might drive alot with the top up, you may prefer the hardtop...........just my .02 worth. Good luck............

 

Where in FL are you? There are plenty of us Mondi guys scattered about.

BTW, this one might be worth a look (claims to be a one owner, both links for the same car)
http://www.autotrader.com/dealers/inview/detail.jsp?ct=u&rdpage=thumb&car_id=262879793&dealer_id=94781&car_year=1988&dealership_view_name=sporttsandimports&mis_search_type=both&sort_type=make_modelASC&address=73135&cardist=6639
http://www.sports-imports.net/

What he said

Nice first post! Welcome to FerrariChat

 

If you think you need A/C, I would go with the T. Otherwise, drive both and see what floats your boat - you will be happy either way, guaranteed!!!

 

If by "A/C" you mean Air Conditioning, both the 3.2 and T have air conditioning, and a properly functioning system should blow cold on either model.

 

Whats more reliable a 328 or 348? No one would argue the 348 is.
As far as miles go look for recent miles in the last 2-3 years. That tends to sort most out any car.

Oh and another vote for black here.

 

Not too sure about that, I've owned both, the 348 is very solid, but not necessarily more reliable than the 328. I think it is probably the other way around.

 

I think you guys are saying the same thing. The 328 drivetrain is probably the most reliable Ferrari has EVER built. Not the highest horsepower, not the lowest center of gravity, but truly bulletproof.

That's not to say the 348 is bad. It is probably very good and it certainly has better performance characteristics than the 328, but from a reliability standpoint, the 328 is about as good as it gets from the prancing horse.

 

Tom, these guys know absolutely everything there is to know about the Mondial and I respect their opinions highly. I too joined the 3.2 gang this summer and it has been just awesome. Mine is black cabriolet with cream interior, the colors which seem particularly in style right now. I cannot comment on the t, but the 3.2 is just so fantastic. I know you don't want subjective, but my nearly 3 month ownership of my 22 year old car has had absolutely no buyer's remorse and no major headaches or major unexpected bills. The way I look at it, Ferrari had a lot of time to perfect the 308....into the QV.....and ultimately into the 3.2 during that evolution and I think there is lots of hidden Ferrari value from that process which lead to a very solid and dependable engine and chassis to last over all these years. Whichever car you choose, F-chat is the best resource you will ever find for your Mondial and I thank these guys for all their insights, advice and experience.

 

The most significant changes would be the introduction of antilock brakes and the elimination of TRX tires.

Personally, I wouldn't care too much. They only made 810 3.2 cabs during the entire run. Of that, I am guestimating that no more than 600 are still on the road and of them, only a very small fraction are in excellent condition. Hence,if you have elected to go with a 3.2, I would focus your search entirely on condition

 

We bought the t for my wife. She loves it. The car is a piece of cake to drive. An 80 year old would have no problem. But, get on it and it comes alive. I have never driven a 3.2 but I expect it is more raw like the 308. Not that my wife couldn't handle a 3.2 but I think she appreciates the power steering and brakes. For me, I like the Low dry sump engine mounted as it should be. Every time I see the engine on a 3.2 it just looks wrong. Like the engine/transaxle of my wife's toyota. I know you are looking for analytical responses but if you really think in that way you will buy a corvette or such. For me the t, with it's longitudinal engine, is more in line (no pun intended) with Ferrari's F1 racing heritage.

When it comes time to change the timing belt I will purchase a 4 post lift, have a custom engine stand made and do-it-myself. After that first expense I really don't think I will spend more on Major service than a 3.2 and what a pleasure it must be to work on the engine in that way. The electronics on the t are scary but they work like magic. The throttle response is mesmerizing. The adjustable suspension is very useful and the brakes are just right. (The seat belt mice are fun too)

The concensus seems to be towards the 3.2 and I cannot disagree because I really have no first hand knowledge of the earlier Mondials. However, I can tell you that the t is a hell of a car!

Dave

 

lots of talk on maintenance and power difference between the 3.2 vs T

nobody is mentioning the very significant lower mounted T mounted motor where the crankshaft is under the differential output halfshafts. im guessing its 150mm difference between the 2 cars which should make a huge difference in handling.

so who's driven these 2 in anger around the track that can share so some light on difference?

 

The mondial 3.2 does indeed drive a bit like a truck - the steering is quite heavy (predictablly, especially so at low speeds/parking), the wheel is tilted forward and away at the top in classic italian style, and the wheel base is quite long which makes for great road manners on the freeway but truck-like feel in tight spots and low speeds.

That said, for driving down the freeway or nice open roads including some twisties it is a super rewarding and fun car to drive that engages the driver in a very hands-on/positive manner. A modern car, with modern gizmos and ergonomics is a much more comfortable car to drive however, so don't expect too much comfort with either, particularly the 3.2.

The '86-'88 mondials look nice with the more integrated bumpers in my opinion.

ABS ('87 and '88) is a nice safety feature to have. The T doesn't seem to have a lot more power than the 3.2, at least I couldn't tell the difference. The scenery wasn't going by that fast in either.

As a DIY guy I appreciate the accessibility of the 3.2 motor (through the wheel well) over the inaccessibility of the T longitudinal motor.

The mondial (3.2 or T) is really all about style as performance is modest at best and they're all roughly 20+ year old cars now, most having some "patina" like it or not including such things as squeaks and rattles, clunks in the suspension and some electrical gremlins. So be ready to deal with a little of this stuff, but in return you'll enjoy some very fun and rewarding motoring in style!

 

I was waiting for a segway into this thread. This is where I can step in. I have driven them both very aggressively and ... wait for it... with a lap timer. Let me preface that with "I am not sure the original poster will put much weight into track performance".. But nevertheless...

I had the opportunity to drive both a 3.2 coupe & t coupe on the same day, same track. Both similarly equipped (basic stock configuration) on street tires with the t coupe having upgraded wheels. While the 3.2 had a nice hard charge down the straight the power is not at t standards. In the pit lane they felt similar, but actual track conditions defined the two. But the most differential was the chassis lean and ability. The t with its transverse transmission and dry sump low slung engine truly drove like a weapon whereas the 3.2 felt wonderful but more like a production car. Of course the t had the advantage of setting the suspension onto the firm setting, and the adjustable coil overs were corner balanced and set on the spring perches to a lower ride height. All things that the 3.2 could not offer.

Lap time difference? 11 seconds on a 2:00 course.

Now some may scream "hey - lower chassis, dry sump engine, transverse transmission -that's not fair!" but my friends... That is the stock difference in the t to the 3.2. The t is absolutely a different animal when you use it for its intended purpose. It is leagues ahead in real power, chassis, steering, suspension and ergonomics.

However, if just enjoying the cars and cruising around town waiting for your belt service interval is your thing... Then perhaps the 3.2 is your car.

If your looking for me though, I will be admiring the 3.2, but I will be in the t.
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