Mondial 3.2 rear head removal | FerrariChat

Mondial 3.2 rear head removal

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by GeorgieM, Jun 6, 2020.

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  1. GeorgieM

    GeorgieM Rookie

    Dec 16, 2018
    27
    Full Name:
    George Melanis
    Anyone know if it’s possible to remove the rearmost cylinder head from a Mondial without dropping the motor out?
     
  2. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Mar 31, 2006
    32,793
    East Central, FL
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    Wade O.
    Ferrari designed the Mondial for easy engine removal. In the long run (short run actually) it's more cost effective to pull the whole package.
     
  3. BillyD

    BillyD Formula 3
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    Feb 28, 2004
    1,774
    Pacific Northwest
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    Bill
    Ferrari heads don’t always just unbolt, they tend to corrode to the studs requiring extra steps to remove. So much easier with engine out and then you can fix so many other items and save your back and neck all that bending over the car.
     
  4. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Mar 31, 2006
    32,793
    East Central, FL
    Full Name:
    Wade O.
    .
     

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  5. BillyD

    BillyD Formula 3
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    Feb 28, 2004
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    Its strange that I excluded a Mondial T from my car search because it required an engine out for servicing. Today I doubt I'd do the belts and valve adjust on my QV with the engine in. A $1500 mid rise lift will easily save me $1500 in doctor bills and pain.
     
  6. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Mar 31, 2006
    32,793
    East Central, FL
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    "Engine in" is sufficient for belt changes. But I agree, it's much easier to do a full service (usually due to time and not mileage) with the motor/trans removed.
     
  7. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2011
    3,859
    Should be possible.
     
  8. donkost

    donkost Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 1, 2016
    912
    Blandon, PA
    In a Cab model there is an access panel behind the rear seats. Ok for changing plugs and things of that nature, but I'm not sure if removing the head would be practical. Sounds like dropping the engine is the best bet, especially if there are stubborn studs, etc.
     
  9. GeorgieM

    GeorgieM Rookie

    Dec 16, 2018
    27
    Full Name:
    George Melanis
    Thanks for the replies. I’ve done belts and plugs with the engine in before. Problem now is the upper cam on the rear bank (bank access from engine bay) stopped moving. So was trying to see if there was a way to avoid dropping. Any ideas why the dam would’ve jammed. No sign that it’s broken and timing sprocket is moving under starter power. Also does anyone have a estimated time on how long it takes to drop the motor? Can’t seem to find any good write ups and directions on this
     
  10. GeorgieM

    GeorgieM Rookie

    Dec 16, 2018
    27
    Full Name:
    George Melanis
    Any directions on how to remove?
     
  11. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,828
    Isle of man- uk
    This is not making a lot of sense- if the timing sprocket is moving under starter power then the cam should be turning, unless you have broken the sprocket to the end of the cam bolts. See if the belt sprocket moves side to side using a small pinch bar
    Have you replaced any timing belts recently ?
     
  12. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Mar 31, 2006
    32,793
    East Central, FL
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    Wade O.
    There's no step by step manual but if you search this forum you'll find lots of info where people have documented what they've done.
     
  13. GeorgieM

    GeorgieM Rookie

    Dec 16, 2018
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    Full Name:
    George Melanis
    Changed timing belts about 1000 miles ago
     
  14. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,828
    Isle of man- uk
    Do you have the cam position indicators fitted on the right hand side of the cam covers ? Looks like a strip of thin tin with 2 arrows . One at the end of each cam- did you use them when changing the belts
     
  15. BillyD

    BillyD Formula 3
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    Feb 28, 2004
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    If the engine is turning over and the cam is not turning, therefore keeping some valves open when the pistons are rising in bores I see BIG problems.
     
  16. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2011
    3,859
    Dropping the motor is a lot of work. At least one whole day for one person. You don't need a lift, as bottle jacks will work. Make a dolly for the power unit to roll out on. The service manual gives a step by step procedure to drop the motor. You will need a lot of room. More than the average home garage.

    If the cam is not turning, but the rest of the motor is, you're going to have bent valves on that head at least. It's also possible that the pistons could have been damaged, and the cylinder walls. Hopefully, it's just bent valves, which are easy to replace. It's probably best to stop turning the motor over until you get this problem resolved. It sounds like the sprocket came loose from the cam for some reason.
     
  17. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Mar 31, 2006
    32,793
    East Central, FL
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    Wade O.
    Found it. See attached. Not sure if it's all inclusive.
     

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  18. GeorgieM

    GeorgieM Rookie

    Dec 16, 2018
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    Full Name:
    George Melanis
    I do not recall those.
     
  19. GeorgieM

    GeorgieM Rookie

    Dec 16, 2018
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    Full Name:
    George Melanis
    I'm sure I bent some valves. Not sure what happened to make the sprocket come loose from the cam. I was hoping to get the head off without removing the motor to assess the damage. I have access to a lift but if I take the motor carriage out I may as well just do both heads. Not sure if anyone has ever removed the head without taking the motor out.
     
  20. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,828
    Isle of man- uk
    Look on the Eurospares uk site for 1987 3.2 mondial, then plate 008 timing system controls, then item 11+12. Timing ref plates left and right. Pt no 125109+125110
    These are the fixed ref points that the lines on the cam shafts should be lined upto at TDC when changing the timing belts. With the belts changed only recently i am wondering if you have a cam out of position.
     
  21. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    12,661
    San Carlos, CA
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    Mitchell Le
    I read through this thread. Given the camshaft being stuck, I would just remove the engine and deal with it on the ground. I would not attempt a head removal on this old of an engine with it in the car. Even if one stud is stuck to the head, you will be much better off with the engine out of the car.
     
  22. GeorgieM

    GeorgieM Rookie

    Dec 16, 2018
    27
    Full Name:
    George Melanis
    AH YES! No the cams were positioned correctly. Car was running great til it just decided not to start.
     
  23. GeorgieM

    GeorgieM Rookie

    Dec 16, 2018
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    George Melanis
    Does anyone know how the cam attaches to the timing sprocket? Is it keyed? I never took that apart?
     
  24. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,828
    Isle of man- uk
    Look at the drawing, it shows the fixing. You can be a tooth or 2 out on the cam belt and it will run
     
  25. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    12,661
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    The cam is attached to the timing sprocket with a M12 bolt (19mm hex) torqued to 100 Nm. The locating pin / hole / index holes are just for positioning of the sprocket versus the cam shaft. The holding force is that 100 Nm bolt clamping down.
     

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