someone mentioned that this season is a boring one... something that i just realised. sigh...
How about Jackie Stewart? He described Senna as the next great driver way back in 1984, after Monaco. He made the exact same comment about Hamilton before this year's Monaco race. I think he knows a little something about the sport, yes? It didn't take too many races for many of us to recognize Schumacher as being something special, and as far as I am concerned it doesn't take that many to recognize Hamilton's potential. Sure a lot of guys have a strong race early in their career (remember Jean Alesi or Johnny Herbert's debuts?) and then backslide. However Hamilton is matching Alonso (the most complete driver on the grid) race for race even on tracks he has never seen before. It is not because Hamilton is in one of the best cars on the grid (as is the case with Massa) that his performance is raising eyebrows, it is his pace relative to his teammate, the reigning 2-time WDC, that is making many of us recognize his talent. Mark my words, in 5 years time Hamilton will be a multiple WDC. And in that same time, Massa will have gone the way of Rubens and Irvine before him. As I said before, comparing Massa to Hamilton is the same thing as comparing Ricardo Patrese to Michael Schumacher back in 1992. And we all know how that turned out 5 years later...
+1 When we watched him put that Jordan on 7th at Spa, we knew something remarkable just happened. I had the same sensation in 84 when I watched Senna in the Toleman in Monaco gaining up on Prost. All I've seen of Hamilton so far points in the same direction: Super talent in the making.
Who knows what will transpire in the next 5 years. Remember that Lewis has done something that not many rookies have and that is get himself into a top car early in his career. Massa just got there and is no longer in Mikes shadow and is doing great. I think he has lots of potential still to come. Yes Lewis is very good ....so far but we need to see more. The best thing to come out of this season is that there are 4 drivers competing for the top and if BMW and Renault got there act together then the up coming seasons will be incredible to say the least. My predictions for the next 5 years(if one an actually do this) is that Massa will win at least 25 races and maybe a couple of WDC. Lewis may be there too..but I need more time to see what he can do over the course of a full season on all tracks in a top car. Alonso I believe will self destruct because of his attitude. Kimi will retire within 2 seasons. But thats just my view.
Ted & Andreas, I hear what you are saying. But I have not seen Hamilton's ability in a car the level of a Jordan or Toleman. He is driving a McLaren, depending on the race, the best car on the track. So far, his statistical best is one race fastest lap. No wins, no poles. You might be right about the future of both Massa and Hamilton. But today, Massa is still performing better. I am not debating the future, just what is happening today, for the 2007 WDC. Personally, I think Kimi will return and win the WDC in 2008. Also, Alonso compares himself to Senna. As long as Alonso in on the track, Hamilton will likely not have the opportunity to show his stuff 100%. As for Jackie Stewart, I also read a quote in one of the F1 magazines a few months ago that he thought Massa had the best chance to win the WDC based on his impressive improvement and dedication. Jackie is one of my favorites, but I would place more credibility when someone currently in the sport makes such a comment, like Frank Williams, Berger, even another driver like Coultard (!). But Jackie's and Niki's comments are just publicity at this point. Those kind of comments have been made about Massa since the beginning of the season, and they continue today. So far, I have not seen any "insider" quotes from anyone outside of the McLaren organization about Hamilton.
Being focused doesn't win races. Even if he dedicates his whole life to being focused. Why would I say anyone's lying about Massa being focused? That's a state of mind, you can't prove it one way or the other. You say he has motivated an entire team to ward off the disappointing affects of Kimi <<< NOW that is a stretch of the truth? Who told you that? Well known? It's the first I've heard. Like I said 5 races doesn't make a champion. Wait and see where he lands in the standings. As for up the ass. How many times has he had to wait for the pits because MS was there, how many times has he been brushed aside, how many times has he held the field up either by being slow or by making mistakes in turns? Massa is a rolling roadblock and that's where his talents reach their peak. If he's so great he should already have a championship and he doesn't. I do not believe he will ever have a drivers championship.
It doesn't matter if he is in a Toleman, Jordan or McLaren if he is getting blown away by his teammate (as Massa had virtually his entire career). He is keeping pace with a 2-time defending WDC, that is the issue. Performance relative to your teammate is the great equalizer, no one else is in the same car. If Hamilton were 7/10 a second slower than Alonso, I would hardly be touting him. However he has been the virtual equal of Alonso in identical cars. That is saying something.
Some pics from Monaco GP (backstage) in http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=136768316#post136768316
I agree with 95% of what you are saying BUT we all have to agree it would be much easier to be fast and closer to your team mate in one of the top teams. In those top teams you have the best mechanics, etc. and thus enormous help with car setup ... Now in a Toleman or Jordan the quality of the whole team is (was) much lower thus to put in respectable times indicates that you have driven way above the cars level ... that says a heck of a lot more about the driver. Witness MS at Spa in the Jordan. I don't believe LH would be able to do that, and unfortunately we will never know. Now the other thing that you guys are forgetting (and Tifosi and you should know better ) is that LH is racing harder that Alonso. LH is still going for his first win and thus trying to prove himself. We all know from experience or from drivers comments that the mentality is very different. Thus currently we have LH pushing much harder that Alonso, hence he is looking that little sharper. LH WILL slow a little when he gets a few wins under his belt as he will then start to race as slow as he can get away with ... which is what Alonso has been doing for the last 3 years, ie. only pushing when he has to, otherwise he is conserving the car and himself. Lauda, Prost, Stewart and ALL the great champions have always aimed to win the race as slow as possible ... it's not about lap times but who gets the chequer flag first. Big mentality difference. Senna on the other hand (and many times to his detriment MS did this) was always trying to break the lap record ... because he was having some sort of religious experience Now the real test will be AFTER Alonso has won the WDC ... I bet he will demonstrate to all who is the faster, just like MS used to occasionally when Barichello talk got a little out of hand (witness Spa a few years ago). I though personally think Alonso just gave LH a lesson at Monaco ... he could not hang on to Alonso. The only time he gained (I believe) was the yellow flag incident and after the last pitstop when Alonso had obviously slowed. Pete
Pete what an excellent post, if people remember the final race of the 05 Season (Chinese GP ) that is when Alonso showed the real pace of the Renault against the McLaren. Your post is perfect, you could see how hard LH was trying in Monaco though.
Yup, totally agree. Because of the idiotic points system Alonso can drive conservatively and thanks to the even more pathetic engine rule for 2 races he has to conserve the motor, whereas somebody like Hamilton can go flat out. The real racing speeds between the two will only come to the fore once Alonso has clinched the title, which will probably happen around Monza (outch!). PS: The engine for 2 races rule IMHO has lost somewhat of its bite: With the freeze of the engine dev at 19k RPM all the teams no longer push the envelope. Therefore we will/have see/n much less Kablamos. That's also why I was dead wrong by saying Alonso will just DNF in 07. The Mercs will no longer implode because they're not stressed to the extreme anymore. Also pathetic.
Yet none of Schumacher's teammates averaged better than 7/10 of a second slower than him. Admittedly, Schumacher hand-picked his teammate to ensure that he would be no threat but still, based on your argument, the gaps should not have been quite that large, wouldn't you think? Alonso is no slouch and he was competitive with Schumacher these past few seasons, so for Hamilton to be as close to Alonso as he has been must mean that he is a highly competitive driver. I recognize that being in a McLaren, he has many advantages, but based on what I have seen and my 30+ years experience watching F1, I believe that Hamilton is going to prove to be one of the greats. I saw this in Senna in 1984 and in Schumacher in 1991, I am seeing it again in Hamilton this year. Time will tell.
Yes I agree that LH appears to be fast, and I am excited about him too. The other thing in the comparison between Alonso and MS, which has a bearing on this discussion is they are different types of drivers. Alonso is more like a Prost, while MS is more like a Senna (and why it took so long for MS to bag the WDC for Ferrari ... too fast and too many unnecessary risks IMO). Thus MS gapped his team mates more ... I don't think (like Prost) Alonso worries about that as much, as long as he racks up the WDC points. Different personalities . Pete ps: Also there is no doubt in my mind that LH > Massa, Barrichello, Irvine, Brundle ...
+1 And, as you said, he only does it when "necessary". The alarming thing (as a Tifosi) is that LH appears smart enough to know when he's getting a lesson, and learn from it, rather than go and throw it in the fence..... Ian
I believe this is the reason that I'm not sold on Hamilton, I'm just not impressed by Alonso. I consider Alonso as the weakest of all the multiple world champions. I rate Mansell and Damon Hill higher than him. Quite honestly, I see Hamilton's career start as being similar to Jacques Villenueve's. 5 Races does not make an immortal. I'll happily eat my words if he ends up world champion this year or next. And regarding Massa.... If he ends up winning the title, some people here are going to have to eat serious crow. The championship is still wide open, Monaco was not an indication of each respective package. Any of these 4 Drivers could still win the title, plus McLaren have some DNF's coming, they just can't be bullet proof all year.
Reminds me of the story of the young bull and the wise old bull. the young bull says, "Look at all those cows down there in the pasture. Let's run down there and get one." The wise old bull replies, "Let's walk down there and get them all." LH may be thinking like a wise old bull at a young age.
I heard a lot about Lewis and thought that this kid cant be that good. Now that I have seen him race and seen him talk, I think he could very well be one of the all time top 5 drivers. It may be early but he can drive. In my mind I think he is already better than Alonso and we will see that this year. The way I see it right now he will not be as good as MS but will be better than Senna which puts him about 4th overall. It will be an interesting season and even more interesting is what the Mac team is going to do to sooth both their drivers. They may have no choice but to let them battle it out. I find that more interesting than the WDC.
I'm a big boy, and I'll eat crow when Alonso proves to me that he's more than a Damon Hill. The question will be for me.... When is enough, enough....
I don't know about the big boy part, Alonso doesn't need to prove anything to you or anyone on this board. He has been proving it on the race track. As Pete stated, Alonso drives with his head ala Alain Prost, and wins races as slow as possible. When he needed to show the real pace of the Renault he did just that at the Chinese GP in 05 when his title was secure and he blew the rest of the field away. As far as the Damon Hill (lame comparison really), when MS was all over the back of Alonso at the GP of Imola in 05, Alonso kept his cool and show what he was made of. Some of us who watched the way MS or JV would get by Damon Hill from 94 through 96 know the difference.
