MEGA THREAD : PORSCHE VS. NISSAN : New GTR : 7:15 around the Nurburgring?

monaroCountry:
Out of curiosity, which of these two cars would you think has the better hp/wt ratio? The one producing the black curve, or the one producing the orange one? X-axis = distance, y-axis = speed.
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monaroCountry, if you want you can PM me the answer. But I'll make it even easier for you. One of these cars is rated at 298 hp/tonne, the other is rated at 276 hp/tonne. Should be fairly easy to figure out which curve belongs to which car, no?
In the meantime, you can chew on this:

7:50 BMW E46 M3 CSL (sport auto); 253 hp/tonne
7:59 Corvette C6 (GM); 271 hp/tone
8:13 Dodge Viper SRT-10 (sport auto); 319 hp/tonne

Looks like GM and BMW have some explaining to do about these ringers. Based on their hp/wt, they are clearly cheating.

As more owners start breaking in their cars and running them, we'll have a better pool of data from which to draw. I can tell you right now that quite a lot of owners are getting similar times and trap speeds to what most mags are getting: 11.5-11.8 w/LC and 11.9-12.2 w/o LC, and 118-122 traps speeds. Remember, that press car tested by C&D ran a 12.6 @ 114 and still beat the Z06 on track. Just as important, customer cars are dynoing no differently than the press cars (tested by Motor Trend and C&D); some are actually making quite a bit more torque.
We should expect that the GT-R isn't faster from a highway roll than a Z06, assuming the Z06 doesn't get to 5th gear. Last year when TopGear tested the GT-R against the Turbo on German autobahns, the Turbo was slightly faster. And that wasn't just any GT-R. That was one of the Nurburgring test mules. Which begs the question: if Nissan really wanted to make a splash with this car, and if the 'Ring cars are ringers (it wouldn't make sense to try dialing in suspension and brake settings with cars of vastly differing hp), shouldn't TopGear's GT-R have been much quicker than the Turbo instead of slower?

 

In that group and in a twisty track its.......

ZR1 lap time: 56.9 seconds
GT2 lap time: 57.5 seconds
599 GTB lap time: 58.0 seconds
LAST.....GT-R lap time: 58.1 seconds

SOME COMMENTS ON THE GTR

 

So, the ZR1 is only 1.2 seconds faster than a car weighing some 500 lbs more with 160 fewer hp on steel brakes that understeers like a pig. How impressive.

Plenty of controllable oversteer here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyTKGLKMrhA
http://tribes.cartribe.co.uk/kickapps/_Nissan-GT-R-SIDEWAYS/video/238654/7276.html?b=

A Viper convertible is faster on a track than a Lotus Exige or Elise. Clearly Lotus can learn a thing or two from Dodge when it comes to handling.

 

In a sub 1 minute lap.....................yes it is impressive. What where you expecting?

 

It's pretty clear that the GT-R is an amazingly good car. I would not want it personally, but it is undoubtedly absurdly fast. Being beat consistently only by a few cars on the road.

 

A lot larger difference than that. But then you obviously think a 997 w/PDK would only be less than 1.2s slower, huh? Almost as fast as the GT2, LOL. I'll bet you honestly think a top-fuel dragster would beat a Prius around the 'Ring.
Consider this: both the GT-R and the M5 are rated at about 8.2 lb/hp. Do you seriously think the M5 would only be 1.2s slower than the ZR1 even on this track? If all you believe in is the sanctity of hp/wt (and that's all you've been talking about to "prove" cheating), then you must accept it.

BTW, you are strangely quiet about that acceleration chart I posted. Wonder why that is...

Also, according to Porsche, the 599 laps the 'Ring in 7:59. It's pretty hilarious to me that Porsche's factory ace drivers can't get the 599 around the 'Ring faster than GM can with the CTS-V. Obviously, GM cheated and sent a ringer.
Do remember that in the edmunds.com test, the lap times were in the 1:25's, yet the difference between the ZR1 and GT-R was still only 1.2s.

Here you go, customer GT-R (with only 700 miles on it, and on Bridgestones) vs customer GT3 at Willow Springs big track and dragrace, on Torque TV:
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Chief engineer Kazutoshi Mizuno said the new GT-R "could get anywhere from 7:44 on up, with most laps coming in between 7:55 and 7:58." This fits perfectly with the recent times achieved by various professional drivers.

* Wolf could be Wolfgang Kaufmann *

Finally from the great man himself, Horst von Saurma

 

The only Ferrari 599 test was conducted by Sport Auto.

Porsche did test the Ferrari 599 with their top driver. Porsche was more than willing to admit that their driver drove the 599 faster than Ferrari's top driver.



7:47 --- 158.80 km/h - Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano, 620 PS/1805 kg (sport auto 01/07)
7:50 --- 157.79 km/h - Nissan GT-R, 480 PS/1750 kg (sport auto 12/07)
7:59.22 154.70 km/h - Cadillac CTS-V, 550 PS/??? kg, *mfr.

TGF driving around and testing another Ferrari 599

http://www.autocar.co.uk/contentImages/Car/Ferrari/599/GTBFiorano2drCoupe/25577125742.jpg

 

Clearly not, the factory tires on a CSL are much better in terms of turning in one really good lap than the Viper's.

 

Wolfgang Kaufmann is hardly a disinterested 3rd party.
Von Saurma drove the Bridgestone-equipped car before revisions were made to the GT-R for other markets (chassis tuning, harder engine mounts, etc). Note that he only did 4-5 laps in a preview drive and was already 4 seconds quicker than Porsche's driver going all out.

 

I don't know how many laps of the Nordschleife Shumacher has done. Do you?

7:47 --- 158.80 km/h - Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano, 620 PS/1805 kg (sport auto 01/07)
7:50 --- 157.79 km/h - Nissan GT-R, 480 PS/1750 kg (sport auto 12/07)
7:59.22 154.70 km/h - Cadillac CTS-V, 550 PS/??? kg, *mfr.
7:59 -- Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano, Porsche promotional literature

This only shows how it is not in Porsche's best interest to get the best lap time out of a competitor's car. I mean, what are they going to say? "Yeah our car is slower than a Nissan"? Get real.

 

Where did you get the 599 time? That time isnt listed anywhere!!!

 

I think you'll find (as Sport Auto found when testing the Vantage) that R-compound tires are good for 10 seconds a lap. Not likely 23 seconds. Von Saurma noted that he was going airborne in the bumpier sections in the Viper. This points to inadequate suspension tuning. Even if you were to magically knock 23 seconds off the Viper's time with merely a change in tires (not likely), you'd be hard pressed to explain how a car with a 26% better power/wt ratio is no faster.

 

It's listed here.
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Well, that depends on what the car is setup for. R compound tires on my 944 will drop lap times, but not as much as they could - the car's suspension was not made for those loads, and it will flex and bend throwing off suspension geometry. It would require modifications to get the best out of those tires, and then you'd really see times drop. I doubt the Aston was made for aggressive R compound tires and racetracks, whereas a CSL decidedly is, and I would imagine the GTR is also made to take advantage of grippier tires then it comes with stock.

I've learned being at a kart track two to three days a week, that lap times are also VERY subject to conditions. Last night the fastest I could pull was a 31.3, I was doing 30.7's monday night, early morning in the cold, lap times are gonna freeze.

I got to see my first GTR a couple weeks ago, not as giant as it seemed in pictures, from straight on the rear it looks odd, but otherwise its pretty nice.

 

Ouestion?

Has anyone done repetitive laps with a GTR on a track like LRP or the Glen. Did the car hold up for 20 laps of hard driving or did the weight destroy the tires and brakes?

However you look at it, the GTR is a seriously fast car. Maybe another car is a bit faster, but take the pro driver out of the equation and I doubt a weekend trackday enthuisiast is going to be faster in a GT3 Scud or ZR1, especialy given how relatively easy the GTR is to drive. So the point is for most the GTR is just as fast as other cars, but can it hold up to repetitive laps like the others can, or will it fade, that is the question. Because otherwise what we have is a really fast streetcar that is capable of 1 great hot lap but is not really a trackable car. This would mean that the GTr is no more serious than a M3 which is a car already too fast for street use and too underbraked and suspended for the track. If this isb true then whatever the lap times a GTR is not really in the same league as the others. But if it can hold up to repeated track use then we have the modern day 250swb, a car that can be driven on the sreet comfortably, driven to the track, on the track and then home. Maybe a GT3 can do this too but it costs more and is possibly less streetable, same for a zr1. The scud costs way more and is not really an everyday proposition.

 

The Vantage was available (in the UK at least) with R compounds as an option. The GT-R could very well take advantage of grippier tires but as far as I know none are available in the GT-R's sizes.

You are right, conditions do matter. Particularly on a very long track like the 'Ring. Nissan did thousands of laps spread over numerous sessions. Clearly, the more often you lap the 'Ring, the more likely you will find perfect conditions. And indeed, that's exactly what they said they had on the record lap. Tochio Suzuki in May of this year said:
"'The conditions were perfect. I don't think the car could go faster."
Even if you got this same exact combo of driver and car together again, the only way to duplicate the same time is to have the same conditions. Until Porsche have done the thousands of laps in the car, and found those perfect conditions, with the level of comittment that Suzuki clearly displayed in the video, then their implication of cheating holds little merit.

You are proving my point for me; I'm not sure you're aware that I was playing devil's advocate with the CSL vs SRT-10 comparo. Clearly there is more to an optimal lap time than hp/wt. Seems we both agree on that.

 

At a recent local track event (2 mile track with a 2/3 mile straight) we had two brand new GTR's show up. They were on the track more than everyone else, and seemed the fastest of the day, and we had a nice set of cars. The only car they didn't pass was a 600+ RWHP Ford GT and that was only because the driver wouldn't let them pass on the straight. I was on a bike and out of the few times I saw something in my mirrors, more than half of those was either a silver or black Nissan.

I'd reckon they did about two or three dozen laps, maybe one more than the other. Most of the time they had passengers, once I saw four people in one car. From what I heard there were no overheating or tire problems. Drove them there about ninety miles, drove them home.

Edit - But for full disclosure. . . the GTR is one of my dreamcars, and I drive an Infiniti

 

Which is why - its a good idea to compare times done on the same day/similar conditions, Porsche's testing of several cars including the GTR would give a better idea of how they stack up against eachother.

I did not realize I was in some arquement with you about HP/WT being all important. I noted the CSL comes with very very aggressive tires. Something the GTR, and most car's don't as standard, with the exception of other purpose built track versions of cars, like the Viper ACR.

 

And the Porsche 911 GT2, and GT3.

 

And in same-day/similar condition test after test, done by purely disinterested 3rd parties (of which Porsche can most certainly not claim to be no matter how hard anyone insists), the result is almost always the same: GT-R is faster than the Turbo and quite close to the GT2.

Again, it's not just down to the tires. The Corvette, which I also mentioned, has even worse tires than the SRT-10 yet it outlaps the Viper at the 'Ring.
If you read my original comment (directed at monaroCountry), and notice monaroCountry's singular beef about the GT-R's NRing time (it's hp/wt doesn't "add up" here, yet he's strangely quiet about how it also doesn't add up anywhere else), then you would see we are in an ongoing discussion about hp/wt. But since you and I seem to in agreement, there's not much else to be said on that.

 

NOW A BIT OF BACKGROUND ON NISSAN'S MAIN HIRED GUN.........do Nissan think this guy can seriously teach Walter Rohrl how to drive around the Nurburgring?




Toshio Suzuki

In the early nineties, whenever the end-of-season Pacific double header at Suzuka and Adelaide came up, Gerard Larrousse's team was in the habit of selling its seats to the highest bidder.

In 1993 Japanese veteran Toshio Suzuki (no relative of Aguri) snapped up one of the Larrousse-Lamborghinis for a Grand Prix debut at the late age of 38. A front-runner in Japan's top category, Japanese F3000, he had bags of sponsor money to offer Larrousse.

Toshio in his two F1 races finished 12th and 14th, scored no points and was dropped after the two races.

 

Quattroruote 08/08
1’15”375 - 122.27 Kph - Ferrari 430 Scuderia
1’15”714 - 121.72 Kph - Lamborghini Gallardo LP560-4
1’17”600 - 118.76 Kph - Nissan GT-R
1’15”528 - 122.07 Kph - Porsche 997 GT2

Motortrend
56.9 sec - Corvette ZR1
57.5 sec - Porsche GT2
58.0 sec - Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano
58.1 sec - Nissan GTR

Top Gear Australia
1:06.92 - Porsche 911 GT2
1:08.80 - Ford GT RHD
1:09.46 - Nissan GT-R

And many more....................the earlier magazine Nissan provided ringers had excellent times. More recent tests are showing far slower times.

The ACR outlaps the ZR1 around the ring because of its racecar like bits (especially aero). The ZR1 achieves an excellent time around the ring because of its MSRC suspension and massive CC brakes, the Enzo has excellent time because well its a Ferrari (would have been better if the suspension held)......all these cars have high hp, lower weight, wider and sticker tires, larger brakes, better weight distribution, better aero, etc.

 

and all that means is sweet ..FA....he said driven hard .....