MEGA THREAD : PORSCHE VS. NISSAN : New GTR : 7:15 around the Nurburgring? | Page 22 | FerrariChat

MEGA THREAD : PORSCHE VS. NISSAN : New GTR : 7:15 around the Nurburgring?

Discussion in 'General Automotive Discussion' started by Akira, May 10, 2007.

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  1. Remy Zero

    Remy Zero Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 26, 2005
    23,319
    KL, Malaysia
    Full Name:
    MC Cool Breeze
    nice avatar :D
     
  2. monaroCountry

    monaroCountry Karting

    Dec 23, 2007
    110
    The Nurburgring Nissan GTR was faster than the ZR1 in the main straight of the ring. Why was this particular GTR far slower in all departments than both the ZR1 and the GT2?


    Chevrolet Corvette ZR1
    Curb weight, lb: 3364
    0-100 mph, sec: 6.9
    Quarter mile: 11.2 sec @ 130.5 mph
    MT Figure 8: 23.7 sec @ 0.87 g (avg)
    60-0 mph: 97 ft
    Lateral Acceleration: 1.10 g (avg)
    Top Speed (observed): 200.4 mph
    Lap Time: 56.9 sec

    Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano
    Curb weight, lb: 3975
    0-100 mph, sec: 7.1
    Quarter mile: 11.3 sec @ 126.4 mph
    MT Figure 8: 25.0 sec @ 0.79 g (avg)
    60-0 mph: 104 ft
    Lateral Acceleration: 0.95 g (avg)
    Top Speed (observed): 201.5 mph
    Lap Time: 58.0 sec

    Nissan GT-R
    Curb weight, lb: 3868
    0-100 mph, sec: 8
    Quarter mile: 11.6 sec @ 120.0 mph
    MT Figure 8: 24.1 sec @ 0.86 g (avg)
    60-0 mph: 105 ft
    Lateral Acceleration: 0.97 g (avg)
    Top Speed (observed): 195.0 mph
    Lap Time: 58.1 sec

    Porsche 911 GT2
    Curb weight, lb: 3270
    0-100 mph, sec: 7.3
    Quarter mile: 11.4 sec @ 127.9 mph
    MT Figure 8: 22.9 sec @ 0.90 g (avg)
    60-0 mph: 98 ft
    Lateral Acceleration: 1.10 g (avg)
    Top Speed (observed): 199.8 mph
    Lap Time: 57.5 sec

    http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_0810_2009_corvette_zr1_vs_porsche_gt2_vs_ferrari_599_vs_nissan_gtr/test_data.html


     
  3. SS2012

    SS2012 Formula Junior

    Jun 4, 2006
    696
    These comparison tests are getting hilarious, they are pitting the Nissan against some crazy competitions way out of its league.....

    Ferrari Scuderia (not even the F430)
    Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano (because the 4 seater 612 would be hopeless)
    Lamborghini LP560-4 (I guess a standard Gallardo wouldn't do)
    Porsche GT2 (The 911 Turbo & GT3 already got its ass kicked too many times)
    Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 (Not the standard Vette or even te Z06, must be the most powerful, fastestes, most expensive Vette EVER)


    Versus


    Good old $70k standard Nissan GT-R.



    The sheer fact that people are pitting these cars against a mere Nissan speaks volumes for GT-R. Nissan marketing people must feel like a bunch of genius right now. Frankly I rather drive around in a 1995 355 Spider than a GT-R.
     
  4. monaroCountry

    monaroCountry Karting

    Dec 23, 2007
    110


    Nissan was the one that claimed a 7:29 ring time beating respected and proven supercars like the Zonda, GT2 etc. It turns out that in the real world these GTR's cant even come close to the true supercars, more embarrassing still is the fact that street driven GTR' are more likely 12second 114mph cars where you cant even use the LC without voiding your warranty.
     
  5. Craigy

    Craigy Formula 3

    Mar 19, 2006
    1,679
    Louisiana
    Full Name:
    Craigy
    So how many times will Ferrari replace your transmission, then? ;)
     
  6. $5 footlong

    $5 footlong Karting
    BANNED

    Oct 16, 2008
    70
    Boston, Ma
    Full Name:
    Jarrod Less
    You know that is the Vspec - and it will not be comming to the USA.
     
  7. FerrariF50lover

    FerrariF50lover Formula 3

    Aug 12, 2005
    2,383
    Ohio
    Full Name:
    Nate
    Just like the GTR is the most powerful and fastest Nissan ever? Lets be real here theres no way this car can run 7:15's around the ring.
     
  8. amenasce

    amenasce Three Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 17, 2001
    33,014
    Full Name:
    Joe Mansion
    So whats the consensus so far ??
     
  9. $5 footlong

    $5 footlong Karting
    BANNED

    Oct 16, 2008
    70
    Boston, Ma
    Full Name:
    Jarrod Less
    say fly your 355 out to the ring and lets see what time you can run around it, I gotta love these parking lot squabbles of what can and cant be done !



    better yet , lets see ya rent a 325d and lets see how fast you can be on the track ! :)


    Im gonna guess it will probably take you about 34min just to schelp around the ring ?
     
  10. AustinMartin

    AustinMartin F1 Veteran

    Mar 1, 2008
    5,445
    Los Angeles/Idaho
  11. SS2012

    SS2012 Formula Junior

    Jun 4, 2006
    696

    V-Spec 7:15? I'll believe it when there is solid prof, until then I speculate the V-Spec should be at least 3% faster than the standard GT-R...... wait a minute, that would actually be 7:15. Hmmmmm~
     
  12. tervuren

    tervuren Formula 3

    Apr 30, 2006
    2,469
    American manufacturers have been doing it on the their top level cars for decades. The GTR is made for the American market, wouldn't surprise me if Nissan underrated them to. Also HP will be affected by temp, humidity, atmospheric pressure, etc. Measure a car at the dead sea, vs the top of pikes peak in Denver, and you will find quite the power difference.
     
  13. monaroCountry

    monaroCountry Karting

    Dec 23, 2007
    110


    The new Nissan GTR just got slaughtered by a Ferrari, Porsche and the Corvette.

    Great job by Nissan's PR department!!!! They actually thought the GTR was faster around the ring than Porsche, Ferrari and Corvette..........some even mentioning a 7:15 time hahahahaha.

    http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=OZlGMX8G3B4
     
  14. monaroCountry

    monaroCountry Karting

    Dec 23, 2007
    110
    These factors affects all cars. The Americans must now get close to the advertise rating since they have now used the SAE rating. Several Japanese manufacturers were busted for over rating their cars.
     
  15. Guibo

    Guibo Karting

    Nov 21, 2003
    190
    It was slower point to point on the main straight (overpass to overpass). Did you not notice that the GT-R was slower than the ZR1 on the other straights? And these were relatively short straights where we'd expect the GT-R to capitalize on its superior traction out of corners. Besides, the GM driver said he faced a strong wind on the final straight and that hampered his speed there.
    If the Z06's frontal area is anything to go by, the ZR1's total drag area is probably a bit worse than the GT-R's. Combine that with the GT-R being able to perform full-throttle, seamless shifts with uninterrupted power delivery (and for all we know it might even have had a tailwind)...it still ends up being slower than the ZR1. Basing the argument that the 'Ring GT-R (driven by a former F1 driver who no doubt knew the track quite well after god knows how many weeks Nissan spent there) was a ringer by comparing youtube vids against a ZR1 (where it is driven in unfavorable conditions) amounts to junk science.
    Do you honestly believe that the GT-R on Dunlops is slower at the 'Ring than the 997 w/PDK transmission, as Porsche claims?
     
  16. Guibo

    Guibo Karting

    Nov 21, 2003
    190
    The SAE standard is voluntary. It's not mandatory. It's only mandatory if you want to claim "SAE-certified."
    The power figure for the GT-R was long published before it was even released here; we have no idea how many engines were tested to arrive at the number, nor do we know how early in the program. Could have been a very early engine. You do realize (don't you?) that quite a few customer GT-R's are making similar hp (and even more torque) compared to Nissan-supplied press cars, like those tested by Motor Trend and Car and Driver. Some customer cars are making as much torque at the wheels as Nissan claims at the flywheel.

    You also forgot to mention that the very slow GT-R tested by C&D (slower than even their E90 M3!) was faster on track than the Z06, not too far behind the GT2, and was faster than even the ACR at 3 corners. And that was on the Bridgestones.
     
  17. monaroCountry

    monaroCountry Karting

    Dec 23, 2007
    110

    Corvette Z06, Viper SRT10 ACR, Porsche GT2, Nissan GTR
    0-60 = 3.8, 3.4, 3.7, 4.1
    1/4 mile = 11.9 @ 124, 11.8 @ 126, 11.8 @ 121, 12.6 @ 111
    70-0 = 159 ft, 149 ft, 155 ft, 155 ft
    Slalom = 62.9 mph, 71.9 mph, 67.2 mph, 67.6 mph
    Lap time = 2:01.7 / 79.9 MPH, 1:55.7 / 84.0 MPH, 1:59.7 / 81.2, 1:59.7 / 81.2, 2:01.1 / 80.3 MPH


    The short track is not suited to the more powerful ACR, ZO6 and GT2 yet both the GT2 and ACR again beat the GTR. The Nurburgring is a long/fast track where the GT2, ACR and ZO6 can really stretch their legs.

    If Nissans Nurburgring numbers were honest the GTR should have dominated this group and come closer to the ACR, at least beat the GT2.
     
  18. monaroCountry

    monaroCountry Karting

    Dec 23, 2007
    110
    #543 monaroCountry, Nov 3, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2008
    ACR v GTR
    Nurburgring = 7:22.1 v 7:29 a gap of around 6.9sec around a 12.9 mile course
    Button Willow = 1:55.7 v 2:01.1 a gap of around 5.4sec around a 2.7 mile course

    Something smells really fishy with the Nissan Nurburgring lap time....dont you think?
     
  19. Guibo

    Guibo Karting

    Nov 21, 2003
    190
    #544 Guibo, Nov 3, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2008
    Again, you miss the point. Given the GT-R's hp/wt (as you say), the GT-R shouldn't be anywhere near these cars. And yet it is. And outlaps the Z06 in the process. You probably think, then, that an E90 M3 is equally likely to beat a Z06. Am I right?
    The Nurburgring is a long/fast track...with scary blind crests, limited run-off, bumps, compressions, requiring many more gearshifts...conditions exactly where the GT-R can take advantage of its lower drag, seamless gearshifts (you've never heard of Evo magazine, have you?), more stable handling (you seriously think a GT2 is more stable/predictable?), ability to smother bumps, and (now, this is where your spec-sheet racing comes up far, far short) overall improved confidence that allows the GT-R driver to commit that much more.
    Did you not learn anything from the R&T track shootout? As the track got faster, the GT-R moved up in the rankings, not lower. In the Motor Trend comparo with the ZR1, the test driver said the ZR1 would easily be 2 seconds a lap faster (on a sub 1-minute track!) if it had paddleshifters. Just paddleshifters! Not necessarily a DCT 'box that provides uninterrupted torque transfer during gear changes. Now, monaroCountry, I would like to hear from you WHY the driver felt that way.
    I see you chose not to answer the question about the 997 PDK. Very clever! I think we can all conclude that you really do think the 997 is faster. But then, you probably think a top-fuel dragster can outlap even a VW Polo at the 'Ring. It's all about hp/wt!
     
  20. Guibo

    Guibo Karting

    Nov 21, 2003
    190
    #545 Guibo, Nov 3, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2008
    Nissan spent weeks (spread out among at least 2 different sessions) and multiple drivers to arrive at that time (on Dunlops). Dodge spent really only half a day. What's so fishy about that? Also, due to its drag, it was clearly limited on the final straight, and the driver flubs a shift at least once (for example, check the lift he does at Adenauer-Forest to Metzgesfeld just to make sure the thing is in gear). You can't prove cheating by citing a clearly less than optimal performance by the ACR. Given equal development time at the 'Ring, the difference should be much greater than that.

    Here's what's really fishy:
    GT-R beats the Z06, 997 Turbo and GT3 and pretty much matches GT2 in multiple independent tests. Even with customer-supplied GT-R, or GT-R's that perform well below the best press cars. And most of these GT-R's are on the Bridgestones, not the stickier Dunlops. Now, Porsche is claiming that the GT-R on the stickier Dunlops is slower than the 997 w/PDK. And you believe it.

    Some journalists who have driven all of these cars weigh in:
    "What we can say is that the GT-R seems to deliver lap times and performance above and beyond what you would expect. Look how close it was to the GT2 around Silverstone - a fast circuit, remember. And that particular GT-R didn't feel as feisty in a straight line as some others we've driven."
    --Jethro Bovingdon (Drivers Republic)

    "The GT-R we drove at Silverstone was on Bridgestones and the GT2 on Pilot Cups and there was 1/10th of a second between them (in the GT2's favour). I remember the 911 being great fun but a real challenge, the GT-R an incredible experience but easier to extract the time from. I wouldn't have felt comfortable taking the same risks in the GT2 at the Ring, simply because you know it'll bite you if you really take the *%&%. Therefore if we can take anything from the whole Ring argument I'd say that whatever the GT-R and GT2's ultimate times are, a mere mortal would be able to get closer to the GT-R's best, which perhaps means more than a few seconds here and there.
    As Chris has said in his column the Ring lap times are always open to conjecture, and while you could argue all day about whether the GT-R or GT2 is quicker it seems hard to believe the Nissan would be THAT much slower."
    --Richard Meaden (Driver's Republic)

    "They're virtually identical on the Brit circuit, so I can't see where the 25sec discrepancy comes from. If anything, the GT-R we used at Silverstone felt a bit tired, it certainly wasn't as quick in a straight line as the one we used for the road work."
    --Chris Harris

    Road&Track's Shaun Bailey:
    "Honestly I don't put much stock in manufacturer lap times. And I really don't put must stock in manufacturer's lap times of other makes. From our experience the GT-R on the Dunlop tires is more trackable than a Porsche 911T."
     
  21. FerrariF50lover

    FerrariF50lover Formula 3

    Aug 12, 2005
    2,383
    Ohio
    Full Name:
    Nate
    No theres no way the car was stock. So your telling me this car can keep up with a CGT on a high speed course, you know that 600hp 3000lb supercar. There is abosutely no way that this happened. These cars have been showing up to the dragstrip and have been laying down lack luster resaults compared to the magazine cars not to mention videos of the GTR getting slaughtered by a Z06 on the highway. This further applies the theorey of the GTR was a ringer.
     
  22. Guibo

    Guibo Karting

    Nov 21, 2003
    190
    Because the NRing is a the same as a highway pull? Come on now. Get your mind out of the hp/wt mindset; your highway pull example not only shows a poor grasp of what it takes to maximize a 'Ring effort, it shows an incredible stubborness to accept other aspects of physics that are just as valid in comparing cars on a twisty track. The 800hp CCX (612 hp/tonne) is much faster on the 'Ring than the CGT (405 hp/tonne), is it? A 600 *peak* hp car is not going to be putting down 600 hp 100% out of the time. Most certainly not out of only 2 tires while coming out of corners. And an engine that makes 600 hp in a dyno cell at sea level likely isn't making the quoted hp at the 'Ring's elevation (5-600m), whereas a turbocharged engine will. Add on top of that the total commitment afforded to the GT-R for reasons I already explained, the CGT's 17% worse total drag area, and the impact of hp/wt isn't as great as you think.
    The CGT is a scary car to drive at the limit. Even Walter Rohrl will tell you that and he doesn't scare easily. Porsche crumpled 2 CGT's during development testing at the 'Ring. That Evo and their race driver, with very limited setup time, could match Nissan's singular best effort (after weeks of testing and multiple test drivers) proves that the GT-R was a ringer? Uh, no it doesn't.
     
  23. tervuren

    tervuren Formula 3

    Apr 30, 2006
    2,469
    #548 tervuren, Nov 3, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2008
    Curious about this fact, any data? Or is it just lower coefficient drag? Having stood around both cars at different times, the GTR I would of thought to have a larger frontal area, but I don't have the measurements myself. The GTR has a taller and wider cabin compared to the CGT that I personally think would greatly increase the frontal area, but perhaps the CGT has deceptively wider width?
     
  24. monaroCountry

    monaroCountry Karting

    Dec 23, 2007
    110
    No again people are quoting Nissan's advertised and suspect figures. Not only does the GTR have a lower Cd it also has a higher downforce compared to other proper supercars. According to Nissan, the GTR has one of the lowest EVER Cd for a supercar.
     
  25. Guibo

    Guibo Karting

    Nov 21, 2003
    190
    This is data from C&D.

    GT-R / CGT
    Width: 74.7" / 75.6"
    Frontal Area: 25.0 sq ft (est) / 20.5 sq ft
    Cd: 0.27 / 0.39
    Total Drag Area: 6.75 sq ft / 8.00 sq ft

    Keep in mind that the GT-R's figure may be even lower than that. When Motor Trend tested the car, they used a "22.5-sq-ft frontal area computed per SAE formula." That would mean the CGT's total drag area might even be as bad as 32% higher. This is not to say that the GT-R will outdrag the CGT. But other factors when combined as a whole can produce results outside of what we expect for a given hp/wt ratio.
     

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