Matra

Just.....listen

 

Music to my ears, thank you Jim.

 

very cool..

 

Absolutely. First music. Then, after a bit, the goosebumps from memorey thereof.

Sorrowfully, I'm afraid, never to be heard again.

 

Matra was my first F1 love. Jackie Stewart drove for them in 69 - and I don't remember this, but I guess I was allowed to sit on it.

 

Not so fast. A technicality maybe, nonetheless, Jackie drove a Matra; but he drove for Ken.

 

it was Matra International vs. Matra Sports. Tyrrell did not come into existence until 1970 when he used a March - then built his own car. Jackie Stewart and Francois Beltois raced F-3 Matra's for a couple of years ... run by Tyrrell. so I think its safe to say he drove for Matra. In fact I even talked to him about that!

 

Jackie contracted with Ken. If Ken ran VW busses, that's what Jackie would have driven. I stand by he drove for Ken. He drove Matras. Ken was born in 1970 and instantly created a team? Also, I thought he used Marches 'twixt the Matras and his own in '71. Wadda I know? :shrug:

edit: You had me doubting myself there... However. check 1970....

http://www.ultimateracinghistory.com/racelist2.php?uniqid=7772

 

In 1968, after a successful F2 season (with Ken Tyrrell managing the team and Jacky Ickx driving), Matra decided to go F1 racing, initially with their own V-12, which was really intended to win Le Mans, but any development in F1 would be worthwhile. The works team would be Matra Sports and the first car was this MS-11.

I think that Tyrrell talked them into allowing him to run a semi-works team using the new Cosworth DFV V-8 that he had just gotten his hands on, and his protege Jackie Stewart was eager to leave BRM after wrestling with their H-16 long enough. Matra agreed, and the team was set up as Matra International; the MS-10 was basically the same chassis as the MS-11 but modified to take the Cosworth. Needless to say, this team was much more successful than the works team, with Stewart winning several races and contending for the championship.

In 1969, Matra decided to skip F1 with the works team for the year, so Tyrrell's Matra International effectively became the works team for the season. The new MS-80 was a step up, and Stewart and Matra won the championships with Tyrrell running the show.

Before the 1970 season, Simca, the French arm of Chrysler, bought Matra, so any chance of running Ford-based engines was out. Matra tried to persuade Tyrrell to run the Matra Sports F1 team with the V-12 but he refused. So initially in 1970, Tyrrell had to go back to being a privateer. Since tire conflicts kept him from acquiring cars from any of the established teams, he settled on the new March outfit and ran March 701s, winning March's only race of the year with Stewart in Spain.

Secretly, his man Derek Gardner was designing a new car with a lot of the MS-80's DNA in it. Late in the season, the Tyrrell 001 was introduced, and Tyrrell finally became a constructor in his own right. The 001 was initially quite fast but unreliable and a bit unlucky - Stewart had to retire in Mexico after hitting a dog! - but of course came right in 1971. Interestingly, today's Mercedes F1 team can trace its origins back to Tyrrell's 1970 team, via BAR, Honda and Brawn.

 

So sorry did not mean to start an argument.... but Ken Tyrrell used March chassis and his DFV in 70 as Jim pointed out above. Matra, was started by Jean-Luc Lagardère, from the remains of the Rene Bonnet company. he and Francois Guitier at Elf put together the French racing team almost as a national effort. Matra today is a part of Renault - I think they do suspension systems etc...

I have the poster from 1969 Watkins Glen that has Stewart in the Matra ... one of the earliest memories I have is that poster. ( which is framed in my garage today).

 

Before they got into racing, Matra was a defense contractor, making missiles for the French military, and I'm not sure if they still do and under what identity. Why they decided to get into motor racing - a completely unrelated field - is a bit of a mystery.

 

Heavens to mergatroids even.....'no apology necessary for the non-argument (as far as I'm concerned).

Exchange of memories and information is why we post, no? It's fun.

 

Absolutely!

 

Lagardere wanted to show French automotive skill...

 

Excellent, thanks for posting.

 

Incidently, just Ken Tyrrell was about to step to F1 with a Matra chassis and DFV engine, Jackie Stewart was talking to Ferrari to get a drive there.
Tyrrell would only enter one car the following year and had the choice of 2 drivers: Jackie Stewart and Jacky Ickx; both already driving for him in F2.
Stewart's trip to Maranello wasn't successful; he brought with him his lawyer in case the talks would have been conclusive and a contract signed.
Ferrari wasn't impressed by that approach and told one of his collaborator; "Did he think he came to buy the firm?"
Remember, that wasn't long after the Surtees episode, that ended when Big John turned with a lawyer to slam the door behind him!
Coming back to England, Stewart was told by Tyrrell the next time he visited the workshop that Ferrari had conducted parallel talks with his team mate, and signed Ickx already! It was typical of Enzo Ferrari to cover all angles, but one can imagine what could have been if Stewart had been recruited by the Scuderia.

Also, Matra received a large grant from the French government to produce their V12 engine. An official turned up at Velizy to check on its progress, only to find out that the design had been contracted to ... BRM! Matra had previously traded with the Bourne firm for F2 and proto engines. There were some long faces, and an angry reaction from high places. BRM was told to stop any work, and the project was repatriated in France and trusted to a new company: Moteurs Modernes, that finished the job, with a chief engineer from SIMCA.

 

I am not sure if SIMCA bought Matra, but there was some collaboration between the 2 companies.

SIMCA provided the engine for a GT car called Matra Bagheera, and Matra also produced a leisure vehicle called the SIMCA Rancho.

Matra also created the first French minivan, but Chrysler (then) turned it down, so did Peugeot that bought Chrysler France.

Renault adopted the design and took Matra under its wing to produce the Espace.

The deal was lucrative for Matra, but it signalled the end of their independence. The GT production was canned, and the racing department closed.

 

So was there any of BRM's design left in the eventual Matra V-12? I am pretty certain that the BRM and Gurney-Weslake V-12s share some common DNA, so what about BRM and Matra?

 

The confusion comes, I think, because several V12 engines appeared in 1966 at the beginning of the 3L formula.

Dan Gurney had commissioned Weslake Engineering to build him a V2 engine for his new Eagle F1. The engine was designed by Audrey Woods, an ex-BRM engineer Gurney knew from his time at the Bourne team in 1960. The V12 Weslake ran for the first time in Summer 1966. Originally called “Gurney-Weslake”, it was re-baptised “Gurney-Eagle” in 1968 when the relation between the 2 parties soured. Eagle dropped from F1 at the end of the year.

At the same time, at BRM an endurance V12 engine was designed by Geoff Johnson. With the H16 problems, the V12 was tested in F1 at the 1967 Canadian GP by Bruce McLaren. This engine went to become the power unit for the BRM F1 team from 1968.

In parallel, Matra had secretly contracted BRM for the design of its V12 engine for an F1 effort too. When that became public knowledge, Matra had to drop the involvement in a hurry and look for a French alternative. George Martin was recruited from Simca. Like the BRM V12, the Matra V12 engine first ran in 1968, but many saw some resemblances between the two engines. Did Martin complete the job working from BRM plans? Who knows ...

To add a twist, Audrey Woods (the Eagle-Weslake engine designer) went back to his earlier employer BRM, to be chief engine designer and created the ultimate V12 version until BRM vanished from F1 in 1977

Also, when Ford was looking for an endurance engine in the early 1970s, Harry Weslake offered a revamped version of his outdated V12, now called Ford-Weslake. The engine was tested by John Wyer on his Mirage, but proved to be too unreliable. Wyer kept the Ford V8 DFV instead and went on to win Le Mans with it.





In short, DNA between BRM and Matra engines are quite plausible, but I doubt the same between BRM and Eagle-Weslake.

 

If the BRM engine was for "endurance", who originally contracted for it? I suppose that's the reason why, like Ferrari's V-12, it always seemed down on power to V-12s built purposely for F1 racing.

I remember that one reason for the problems that Gurney had with Weslake's V-12 is that every unit was basically hand-made, so parts intended for one engine didn't necessarily fit another.

Realistically, none of the first-generation V-12s of the 3-liter era was really successful. Not until Ferrari's second-generation flat-12 did you have a real winner (and even it had growing pains).

(P.S. Mr. Woods' first name was Aubrey.)

 

Oh, consider this, in 2007, John Zimmerman wrote this in MotorSport magazine, referring to the 1970 BRM P153:

"Ironically, the V12 that powered that BRM was drawn up by Aubrey Woods, the same man who had designed the Eagle's Weslake V12."

 

I stand corrected; it's Aubrey, and not Audrey !

I found this in Motorsport archives, that throws some more light on Woods involvement.


Obituaries - Aubrey Woods

This gifted designer and engineer died on November 3 after losing his battle with cancer. A disciple of Peter Berthon and Raymond Mays, Woods will forever be synonymous with British Racing Motors, the team with which he began his career as a draughtsman in the formative V16 days of 1947-48.

Woods played a crucial role in the 1.5-litre 'Project 56' V8 engine and, along with Berthon, headed up a 'future projects' office at Weslake Research. This ultimately led to a complete split with the Bourne squad as he conceived the 3-litre Weslake V12 which powered the Eagle GP cars, the same basic design having been turned down by BRM in favour of the infamous H16 unit.

Woods would return to BRM as head of engine development in 1969, only to then set up shop with Chris Amon to build F2 engines. This venture proved short-lived, and the business was sold at a loss to March in 1972. This heralded another return to BRM, with which he remained until the team folded in '77.

He subsequently acted as a consultant engineer, one of his many projects being the ill-starred Signature Ecosse sportscar of the late 1980s.