Manuals vs Auto's - costs...

I'm pretty sure companies are moving toward those F1/e-gear/SMG/etc gearboxes to make more money. More expensive parts = more expensive markup for both initial sale and resale. More labor required for maintenance also makes more money especially if you need special tools to open it. Don't forget that removing a manual option means you don't need two engineering designs to fit in a 3rd pedal and transmission tunnel. The factory workers also have an easier time building cars with one transmission choice (more productivity = more profit).

The extra few milliseconds it saves you during the traffic commute is just the selling point to justify it to customers. Telling the customers the first paragraph wouldn't sell more. If they were trying to make your car faster with F1, they'd remove the stereo, airbags, and a/c system while they're at it.

 

Ferrari F1 transmissions are not automatic transmissions! They are manual transmission with a hydraulicly operated clutch and shifting. Certainly more mechanical and electronic complexity than old-school 3-pedal manual shifting.
Jes

 

No way (if by "automatic" you mean a mechanical clutch-coupled manual transmission with paddles and by "manual" a mechanical clutch-coupled manual transmission with a clutch pedal and conventional shift lever). There's no "conspiracy" going on out there -- paddles are a technology win and a ease-of-use win for F. I don't like the complexity either, but it isn't like F is going against a majority their (new purchaser) client base -- the paddles expand it.

 

My take on this conversation is that based on the demand experience, and based on cars sold, the R&D and separate parts needed are too expensive based on the units that can be sold so it's not economically viable to sell a MT.

I should have put some punctuation in there but yeah, if not many units are sold a manual can be more expensive than a automatically shifted vehicle that sells many units.

Why does Ferrari no longer sell a MT. I think there are several reasons, this is only part of the picture.

 

Yes..

But heres a thought....theres a decent amount of buyers out there that would prefer a manual, this we know......and I'd bet those guys would pay Porsche (think new GT3) and Ferrari "extra" for it.....like 10k + just to get a manual.

 

But not enough buyers to support the additional R&D for new cars. Would a buyer be willing to spend an extra 50K or 100K? They sold very few MT cars.

 

Isn't it your homework (since you say such an opinion exists) to provide a link for us?

 

My daily driver Audi has the DSG box, and I love it. Not so much the performance, which is impressive, but the flexibility to go from business-dude-stuck-in-traffic-on-a-conference-call to a Vettel wannabe carving some curves in the same car.

I'm sure it's more expensive because it's more complicated, but IMHO the dual-clutch solves the time-old manual-or-automatic dilemma. Faster, more fuel efficient, easier to drive. Done deal. I think it makes the automatic or three-pedal manual both kind of dated.

(And yes, I enjoy rowing the gears in my old Porsche -- it's a joy. Just not in traffic.)

 

Sorry, but the most exciting car that the author of the above article has probably ever owned is a Camry with a sun roof.

 

+1. Another 20 something hipster that thinks that all they need to go through life is a Macbook, a smartphone and a facebook account.. that doesn't have a license, prefers not to drive but if they do use a ZipCar Prius or other driving appliance. Only in this country with lazy, fat, texting, coffee drinking drivers are automatics preferred.

To quote the article: "If they aren’t able to sell their vehicle before the transmission goes, look out! The cost of replacing a transmission varies widely, but expect to pay between $1,800 to $3,500. Automatic transmission go bad much less frequently than manuals… mostly because the machine is much more efficient at changing gears than a human. SkyNet. Suddenly, that $1,000 cost savings does not seem so appealing, does it?"

Really? Statistics please. Seems a sensor, fluid leak in the automatic transmission will disable it much more often than a manual. Each and every week on this board is there an F1 transmssion "issue" or question or problem. Each week. DSG transmissions.. wait till the California, 458, F12, etc. have enough miles for the transmissions to fail. IIRC one California owner had 3 put in their car.

Manual, gated shifter transmissions are more reliable.

 

Does meeting emission and mileage standards enter into it?
While a standard transmission is traditionally more frugal today's auto boxes allow for tighter computer management.

 

So you understand that the Ferrari "Automatic" is a manual gearbox and, in simple terms, a computer controlled robot to do the shifting for you, so of course it will cost more to pay for the extra complexity of the automatic shifting mechanism added by Ferrari to do the shifting for you.
I believe one of the main reason Ferrari went to this system on their street cars is not for lap times but because of the simple fact that many people today who have the financial means to buy a Ferrari do not know how to work a clutch.

 

For the author's narrow example of "an econobox I want to sell someday", his logic is perfectly right IMO -- but the cost and design issues in his comparison have nothing to do with conventional stick vs paddles (i.e., computer-controlled stick).

I completely disagree that every "automatic" (regardless of type) always has less wear intrinsically, because every shift is perfect. Maybe true for timid, fluid-based, no-mechanical-clutch gearbox like in the author's example, but I'd wager that the history of posts here (clearly) shows that the paddle-based F models have much more clutch trouble + clutch service needs than the vintage manual F models. The author's "automatic" example probably can't hurt itself too much, because it doesn't have a mechanical clutch, but that's not true for modern "automatic" sportscars which do (which is why modern 0-60 times are meaningless IMO).

 

Straight from the mouth of some serious ferrari techs/guys (I happen to agree with their opinion). The average new ferrari driver is a guy who can't drive and wants to impress his girlfriend, so they go for f1. They have the money and that's what they want, so Ferrari builds what it's new buyers want. Hurts the used car market because most of those buyers want a manual.

They also said the f1 box is much costlier in the long run. Wears clutches faster too.

 

+1. Demand for new Ferraris skyrocketed when paddles were introduced. Coincidence?

When I ordered my 3 pedal 430 in 2005, paddle cars were about 10,500 more. At this point in the depreciation curve, that money is entirely gone and perhaps more.

No where in Websters will you find mention of torque converters vs dry clutches under the definition of "automatic". If it shifts automatically, it's an automatic. The idea that paddle cars are manuals is simply marketing hype.

Dave

 

I have heard almost all transmission work on the F1 boxes is strictly TOTAL UNIT REPLACEMENT.

At about $40,000.00 per unit.

Talk about a "MAJOR!"



Now, what will that do to older F1 Box cars in the 2nd-airy market?

Send more to the scrap heap a whole lot quicker, I'd imagine.

 

I think they're a new category. You can opt to drive it as an automatic or a manual.

Unless we restrict "manual" to mean a clutch operated by the driver's foot... which seems kind of arbitrary.

With regard to the sales spike, I think you're right. The 360 brought Ferrari a lot closer to being a mass market car, because user-friendliness became a priority and anyone could drive it reasonably well with the F1 box, and all the other electronic nannies.

 

That is only for the dual clutch units and because most are still under warranty so it's easiest to pull them as a unit and send them to Getrag for diagnosis and repair. I have no doubt that they will be repairable in the future, just like anything else.

All of the single clutch units are identical to their manual counterparts with exception of the clutch and shift actuation, internally there are no differences so they are as easily repairable as the manuals (including clutch change with exception of computer recalibration).

The earliest 355 f1's are now 15 years old and the only issue they seem to have over the manuals are the hydraulic pumps, which can often be rebuilt or replaced with the better 360 unit.

I'm a 6 speed guy and didn't even consider and f1 355, but that said most of what is posted here is FUD by those afraid of change.

 

What it boils down to is 2x the complexity but 10x the quantity, which is much cheaper to manufacture than 1/2 the complexity at 1/10 the quantity due to the ability to amortize the design and certification costs over 10x the number of units.

 

So transmissions with a torque converter that have the option to manually shift (paddle or gear shifter) are now manuals? The tiptronic/sports mode on a lot of cars allow you to slide the gear shifter to the left or right to tap up and down. Some of those slushbox cars also have paddles that actually do control the shift points...

IIRC, very few Fcars with the F1 transmission don't have 'auto' mode. The Enzo for sure and I think the Stradale and Scud may as well. I'd be surprised if the 599 GTO had an auto mode. Those I could see being called "manual" as they don't allow any other auto method. I prefer "semi auto" gearbox like they do in Formula 1 racing. The rest of Fcars do have auto modes as far as I know.

 

This guy is a tool. The article is emphasizing $53 annual savings a year which loses credibility in my mind immediately.

Besides that, manual transmissions will still be sought after in the near future. It will be nowhere near the demand it was nor will it be near the demand for new automatics.

However, this trend will be interesting because it will reflect the increase in used vehicle prices in the recent years. The recession halted new car sales and a few years later the industry lacked used cars because nobody purchased new cars. I can see something similar happening with the huge increase in automatics hitting the market. The manual will become rare and sought after by those who truly want it. This way his residual statement might not be as accurate as he thinks.

I'm always look for a manual and just found a very nice V70 I might move forward with and I am also look for a manual for my father.

 

exactly. my friend had an acura TL with paddles shifts. Just because you are pulling a gear lever doesn't mean you're driving a manual.