MADNESS...Sebass gets 25 seconds. | FerrariChat

MADNESS...Sebass gets 25 seconds.

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by Etcetera, Oct 12, 2008.

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  1. Etcetera

    Etcetera Two Time F1 World Champ
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    WOW...just WOW.

    I guess the new rule is that anyone that MASSA spears into or runs off gets a 25 second penalty.

    Unreal.
     
  2. Barrister

    Barrister Formula Junior

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    I have been so busy at work over the past few weeks that I have not been able to surf the forum or make any posts. But when I come back, I find that not much changes. Ferrari is still being spoon fed championship points by the FIA. This is simply disgraceful.

    I mean, were the Stewards watching the same race that we were? Let's put the McLaren/Ferrari rivalry aside for a second and look at this objectively - Bourdais did nothing wrong in that turn. He simply kept his racing line and had nowhere to go once Massa came after him. But he gets penalized???

    I think that F1Live.com had a pretty good take on it.

    "Bourdais penalised for racing a Ferrari...

    Sebastien Bourdais drove a great race to take the chequered flag in sixth position, 34 seconds behind race winner Fernando Alonso.

    The AFP news agency is reporting however that the French Toro Rosso driver has been handed a 25 second penalty dropping him down to tenth position and out of the points.

    Bourdais has been penalised by the race stewards for an incident late in the 67-lap Japanese Grand Prix when he defended his position from Ferrari driver Felipe Massa. Exiting the pits, Bourdais kept to the right hand side of the circuit heading to turn one while Felipe Massa moved to the left to try and pass around the outside.

    Massa turned into the corner and contact was inevitable but it is stunning that the stewards have penalised Bourdais as he was on the inside and defending his position and not Massa.

    The decision again raises the issue that the sport more often than not makes decisions that benefit the Ferrari team.

    Sebastian Vettel is promoted to sixth position ahead of Felipe Massa who – surprise surprise – picks up an additional point with Bourdais’ 25 second penalty. Mark Webber is promoted to tenth ahead of Nick Heidfeld and Bourdais..."

    The comedy of errors continues. But I am happy to be back!
     
  3. Aardy

    Aardy F1 Rookie
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    All is done to give more point to Massa for the championship. That's all...
     
  4. scud

    scud F1 World Champ

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    and massa should of got 10 points if the engine didn't blow in one race, and maybe another 10 if they didn't **** up in the pits, and be way in front......................

    and hamilton would of won last year if he didn't cock it up.

    that's racing folks

    go massa go
     
  5. Etcetera

    Etcetera Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Should HAVE.

    Would HAVE.

    Why is this so hard for some people?
     
  6. mir88i

    mir88i Formula Junior

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    I wasn't able to catch the replay of that incident. Maybe it really was bourdais' fault. I'll try to find a video.

    As for hamilton, he got the penalty for hitting kimi at the first corner. (at least thats what kimi said).
     
  7. Etcetera

    Etcetera Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Yeah...Seabass fault for....being on the same planet.

    ...
     
  8. 355

    355 F1 Rookie
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    Dont understand why you are getting so upset Artie. Just follow the script. :) If you would like a copy, I can post it for you.
     
  9. redtrman

    redtrman Formula 3
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    #9 redtrman, Oct 12, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2008
    I am sorry sir, but I respectfully disagree, based on what I saw, Massa had the racing line and that was his, he does not have to move over to let a pit car exiting take his line. Either bordais could have braked or attempted to get ahead, but neither happened. Bourdais tried to squeeze Massa from his racing line. Massa was perfectly correct in what he did and held his racing line, if others do not like it, then they do not know racing. I raced bikes for many years and trust me, if you have the line, there is no rule that requires a racer to slow down or move over to let another racer take your line, period. As they say, that's racing or will F1 make a change for the driver to give up his racing line whenever an opponent is coming out of the pits.

    BTW - I called the Massa penalty before the stewards did so do not think I am a Massa lover, I just love good racing.
     
  10. b-mak

    b-mak F1 Veteran

    Um, as a racing driver, without question this move was bad judgement on Massa's part. What championship contender would put his car at risk at that point in the race? Of course, just Massa.

    As far as "the line" is concerned, it was all Bourdais'.
     
  11. redtrman

    redtrman Formula 3
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    Really? I need to see a replay because I did not see it that way. I am a fair person, lets see the replays, but again, based on what I saw, there is no way bourdais had the line, he we entering the track into Massa''s line. I will be curious how the replay comes out.
     
  12. b-mak

    b-mak F1 Veteran

    WTF

    Of course it was Bourdais' line. Pit lane spits cars out on the the right side of the track. Turn one is right. Where else was Bourdais supposed to go?

    LOLLLLLZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11!!!!!!!!!!!1!!!!!!!!!!eleven!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
     
  13. Formula1Fan

    Formula1Fan Formula Junior

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    I don't think this has anything to do with Bourdais, he is just the innocient bystander. The stewarts are just trying to make up for the damage Hamilton did to Ferrari. In basketball they call it a makeup foul. Massa lost his head because of what Hamilton did in turn one and cost himself. If he had trusted the stewarts to deal with Hamilton's antics he would have been okay. Kimi, on the other hand, lost a potential four points and counting getting slammed from behind my Hamilton (in which race was that ?) Kimi could still be in the thick of things. One starts to wonder if Alonso wasn't right about Hamilton all along.
     
  14. redtrman

    redtrman Formula 3
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    Again, I need to see the replay, but just because a car is exiting the pits, I do not believe that gives them an unfettered right to just push another driver out of the way. If a driver is on the track and a pit car exits at the same place and time, you are saying that the guy on the track has to move over and make room for the pit car to exit? If yes, I disagree, the exiting pit car needs to either brake or beat the other car to the turn, but I do not think the guy on the track has to make room for the pit car? You are the race car driver so tell us what is the custom on the track, would you move over?
     
  15. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #15 tifosi12, Oct 12, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2008
    Ferrari International Assistance at it again.

    Seabass didn't cross the white pit exit line, that's all he has to think of. The rest is up to the traffic on track. Unfortunately for him it was one of "protected" cars, so he gets the blame.

    PS: BBC News aired an interview with Mad Max in his FIA office. Guess what sits prominently on display in his office? Yup, a big (I'm guessing 1/10 scale) Ferrari F1 car. If there were any doubts about the FIA's allegiance, they were wiped out after seeing the president's office.

    I want Ferrari to win, but on their own merit by beating the competition and not by getting favourable treatment from the sport's authority.
     
  16. b-mak

    b-mak F1 Veteran

    Dude, what are you smoking? You really need to watch this again.

    Bourdais was on the right entering turn one. WHERE THE **** WAS HE SUPPOSED TO GO?

    They both had an obligation to leave each other racing room. Bourdais did that. Massa decided to be a prick.

    If I were Bourdais, I would have done the same thing, which was nothing wrong except contravene Section 312 Subsection 27, the Don't Crash Ferrari Regulation.
     
  17. redtrman

    redtrman Formula 3
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    Fair enough, if that is the obligation of both drivers.
     
  18. DGS

    DGS Six Time F1 World Champ
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    They did have a replay -- from the same camera angle that didn't really show where the line was. The speed commentators were begging for an overhead view, but we never got one. (Can somebody find one on youtube?)

    We've seen before where Massa expects cars that aren't Ferraris or McLarens to yield in the pits. ;)

    Massa didn't give Bordais anywhere to go but on the brakes. Of course, we also saw Kubica do that to Kimi a few times, too. This was a race for position out of the pits, and we've seen that before too.

    I think several of the incidents in this race have to do with harder than "normal" tires in colder than expected temperatures: Lewis and Heikki got surprised by their tires at T1, Seabass got surprised by cold tires leaving the pits on cold tires.

    But this isn't a "Ferrari bias", it's a "show" bias. Bridgestone didn't want to risk Lewis ripping through his tire and messing up the "show", down to the wire.

    But they seem to have forgotten that tires tailored to Lewis' driving style also suit Alonso. ;)
     
  19. aawil

    aawil Formula 3

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    In all honesty I really don't think there should have been any penalty's at all this race. Hamilton is certainly not the first driver in racing history to get punted. I'm not sure why the stewards feel like they need to hold people's hands when they race. If Massa and Hamilton had not gotten drive throughs, Massa still would have gained a few points. The only guy to feel sorry for in this race is Bourdais. I get the feeling Hamilton learned nothing when he through the championship away last year. It's certainly good news for Massa.
     
  20. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
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    #20 WCH, Oct 12, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2008
    I'm with b-mak. Bourdais left the pits, stayed right, stayed hard right into the turn, as far right as he could go. Massa had an easy pass, all he had to do was not hit Bourdais. Oops. Idiot.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dKvZE0iuU8
     
  21. redtrman

    redtrman Formula 3
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    #21 redtrman, Oct 12, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2008
    Looking at the replay, I did not recall bourdais being outside the pit lane. However, Massa was clearly ahead of bourdais into the turn and based on the spin out, there is no way Massa hit bourdais otherwise his front end would have turned to the right and likely spun out. But, it appears bourdais t punched massa, maybe by accident, I assume because he was going to fast and Massa went by so fast and he could not brake fast enough so he hit Massa and ala, the spin out. The question is whether bourdais was braking or pulled that state trooper manuever.
     
  22. xpensivewino

    xpensivewino Formula Junior
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    It is the obligation of the driver leaving the pit lane to watch for oncoming traffic, if he needs to let off for a second to let the faster car come through safely then so be it. However the pit lane out was green so SB went out on track full bore. SB's team should've warned him about the approaching Ferrari, as the same for Massa's team to warn him of SB leaving the pit lane. Massa is at 200 MPH, entering a corner, SB is entering a green race track, at a reduced speed to that of the oncoming traffic, there for it is up to SB to be careful. That is why the stewards, stupid or not ruled that way, it is simple international racing rules that govern here, not opinion. You can compare this to the penalty that Ferrari got for releasing Massa into on coming traffic in the pit lane, one car has the right of way, the other must be careful and wait.
     
  23. DGS

    DGS Six Time F1 World Champ
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    #23 DGS, Oct 12, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2008
    Same camera angle that doesn't really show the incident. For all we know, Bordais came unstuck on cold tires and slid into Massa. (He certainly went wide after the contact.)

    We don't have the data. It looks from the outside like Massa was pulling a DC, but we just don't have the viewing angle to see what really transpired.

    We need the on-board from Seabass .... just as we needed the onboard from Kimi at La Source, but never got it.
    Do the stewards seal off the videos they use to render a decision? (Grassy knoll style?)
     
  24. ingegnere

    ingegnere F1 Veteran
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    Massa left enough room for the two cars to apex, but it looks like Bourdias was racing him off the apex and went wide, hitting Massa at the back.

    He had no reason to race Massa, knowing that Massa had to pit again.
     
  25. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    THOSE NEW F1 RULES IN FULL
    Sniff, Friday, September 12th, 2008 at 3:06 am
    Posted in Motorsport

    Following unfortunate misunderstandings in the Grands Prix at Valencia and Spa, the FIA has revised the Red Car Rule for Formula 1. These amendments will be applied with immediate effect:

    1) Overtaking a Ferrari is not permitted under any circumstances.
    2) In the pit lane, a Ferrari always has precedence over other cars.
    3) Any driver finishing less than 25 seconds ahead of a Ferrari will be penalized 25 seconds.*
    4) If neither Ferrari finishes in first place, the stewards reserve the right to declare the result null and void (or to adjust it as necessary).
    5) Only Ferrari drivers are permitted to use anything other than ‘designated’ parts of a circuit.
    6) If forced off the ‘designated’ part of the track by a Ferrari, the guilty driver should immediately crash his car and return to the pits
    6) Any driver or team appealing against any FIA decision in favour of Ferrari may be subject to a fine and/or the deduction of points.
    *Subject to post-race adjustment by the stewards
     

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