Lowering - your driving experience??? | FerrariChat

Lowering - your driving experience???

Discussion in '360/430' started by masar, Feb 14, 2009.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. masar

    masar Formula 3

    Aug 19, 2007
    1,367
    Czech republic
    Full Name:
    Petr
    Talking to one guy today about lowering. He said the after lowering of his Porsche using factory coil over system, the car sit lower but feel much softer on road which was very bad. He had to put HR lowering springs to fix it. I have mine lowered as well and thinking about what he said, it make some sense. I mean if you lower car, the spring is actually extended = its softer = the whole suspension is softer which might not be best in corners, etc....

    What is your experience?
     
  2. Loz997S

    Loz997S Formula Junior

    Aug 26, 2007
    988
    Bay Area
    Full Name:
    Laurence D
    I'm not sure I understand the logic; lowering doesn't extend the spring to my knowledge.

    I had a 997S which was lowered on the original springs - the spring was compressed/preloaded more, made the car much stiffer; too stiff in fact.

    If you replace the springs with ones designed for that ride height then I would imagine the characteristics would be independent of how much you lowered the car.
     
  3. masar

    masar Formula 3

    Aug 19, 2007
    1,367
    Czech republic
    Full Name:
    Petr
    #3 masar, Feb 14, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2009
    You know its crazy, i lowered mine personally about 1 year ago and i dont remember how it works, i am confused. Hope i am correct but you turn the ring down = spring is being extended?! or damn, am i wrong ?

    I just put CS wheels on my car and want to lower additional 1/2" next week which gives me already about 2 1/2" lowering from standard Modena set up. But i want stiff suspension not soft. I have soft enough on my daily driver sedan.....
     
  4. Loz997S

    Loz997S Formula Junior

    Aug 26, 2007
    988
    Bay Area
    Full Name:
    Laurence D
    We should wait for an expert to join in :)

    But to my knowledge, lowering the car can be achieved by compressing the springs which will preload them and have the affect of stiffening them.
     
  5. docf

    docf Formula 3

    Sep 14, 2008
    1,351
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Gary
    Had a Porsche Boxster a while back and had Tech Art work their magic with lowering , springs etc. and it was a marked improvement handling, comfort , and looks over stock to my surprise. Ride was softer, but how it handled was unblievable. I think it depends obviously the experience of the shop and the vehicle. Tech art as an example is very into Porche and knows what works via testing as does AMG for MB. I have not lowered the Ferrari yet as living in Co. would be a mistake!
     
  6. ferraritime

    ferraritime Karting

    Aug 22, 2007
    246
    Washington DC Area
    Full Name:
    Jerry H.
    Masar, lowering the car is not going to make the suspension softer. The springs will be preloaded just as they are at stock ride height. If they did expand like you suggest, then the ride height wouldn't change. If you notice the ride height changes by exactly the amount you lower the spring perches. To wit, if you turn your collars down another 1/2", the car will sit 1/2" lower. Also, since you've changed to the CS wheels/tires which have a much lower profile, you should see a noticeable improvement in ride/handling and harshness as the stock tires have a much softer feel given their larger profile.
     
  7. masar

    masar Formula 3

    Aug 19, 2007
    1,367
    Czech republic
    Full Name:
    Petr
    #7 masar, Feb 15, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2009
    I was thinking exactly same but that guy yesterday confused me. Look, if i turn the collar down, the spring is going down as well while upper end of the spring stays in same position = spring should be extended = should be softer ?! Or not?

    For the ride, i used to have 20/19 HRE`s with low profile tires and 1" lowering, i am looking forward to see how it change with CS wheels and another 1/2" down.
     
  8. ferrari_jjc

    ferrari_jjc Formula Junior

    Dec 27, 2004
    442
    My exp is it is dependent on how lowu go. If u drop it say 1.5 inches it'll b a good idea to chg the springs especially if u r going to track the car
     
  9. omgjon

    omgjon F1 Rookie
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 13, 2005
    3,542
    Spicewood, Texas
    Full Name:
    Jon Gunderson
    It will be more bouncy but not necessarily softer. The lower the perch is, the lower the car will sit but the spring will have a greater range of compression.
     
  10. kaamacat

    kaamacat Formula 3

    Jun 13, 2004
    1,623
    Cumming GA
    Full Name:
    BobR
    #10 kaamacat, Feb 15, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2009

    Correct +....... and then there's a point where you may want to just look into a different coilover setup all together.
     
  11. GCalo

    GCalo F1 Veteran

    Sep 15, 2004
    7,645
    Northern California
    Full Name:
    Greg Calo
    #11 GCalo, Feb 15, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2009
    The OEM 360 and 430 springs are 10". You could lower the car by going to a 9" spring but that may not be the best approach.

    If you want to lower then you can go to a slightly higher capacity spring such as a 10" AFCO 400# which is 10%-14% slightly higer capacity than the OEM and then get the similar support as the 350# +/- OEM spring.

    See: http://www.afabcorp.com/AFCO_Dynatech_USbrake/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=A&Product_Code=23400&Category_Code=hp_coil-over-10

    These are perfect replacements for the 360 and 430 fronts.

    There are three color marks Ferrari used to rate their spings. The springs with the three (3) red marks are the most current and are the same as used on the 430. So regardless of the color designation of your springs the AFCO spring above is a good alternative replacement.

    It also rids the F/E of the slight dipping at speeds that can cause road contact with high spots.

    BTW you can use these AFCO springs regardless of whether or not you lower the car.
     
  12. masar

    masar Formula 3

    Aug 19, 2007
    1,367
    Czech republic
    Full Name:
    Petr
    #12 masar, Feb 21, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2009
    thanks for interesting info. I have big dilema now. Winter and 4" snow outside so time to think.... My car siting on jacks without wheels and i play with the colars of OEM springs. I am now on both suspensions aprox. 1 3/4" lower compare standard height. Thats almost 2" !!! Will go propably back to 1 1/2" but still seems to me too much for OEM spring and i am afraid car will be too soft.

    You mentioned that OEM spring is 10" long = 25,4 cm . I checked HR lowering springs (3 cm down) for 360 and they are 22,7 cm front + 23 cm rear = aprox. 9". So its logical that even i lower car for 1 1/2" they are shorter and should (but realy????) feel significantly stiff compare OEM springs. Why you think 9" is not best aproach, shocks will suffer?

    Does anyone has experience with HR springs and can say its realy worth of the money? Did you feel difference? I mean in my case i am going fro 1"1/2 down as mentioned above..... Important to mention that i am going to track car this year very often so i want good suspension......
     
  13. SSR

    SSR Formula 3

    Jun 14, 2007
    1,134
    Mine is very low I used AFCO springs too and the ride is very good,if you lower the car the spring rate has to go up to prevent bottoming .
     
  14. masar

    masar Formula 3

    Aug 19, 2007
    1,367
    Czech republic
    Full Name:
    Petr
    #14 masar, Feb 22, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Do you use same type as recommended above? They cost only 66 usd/pcs - much more cheaper than 700 usd H&R springs for 360. They are not available in Europe but H&R also offer similar custome springs for similar low price, maybe i will find alternative.

    where can i get full specification of OEM 360 springs? I will remove them today and will measure them anyway.

    Talking to some people again, I decided to go for new springs for sure - just now have to consider if these AFCO or H&R. Keeping the OEM springs and lowering more than 1" can cause wobling/swing of car on fast straights. I still think that 9" should be better than 10" in case of lowering 1 1/2", why not? However that price of AFCO makes me wonder.

    Attached is some tech info about H&R lowering springs for 360/430.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  15. masar

    masar Formula 3

    Aug 19, 2007
    1,367
    Czech republic
    Full Name:
    Petr
  16. GCalo

    GCalo F1 Veteran

    Sep 15, 2004
    7,645
    Northern California
    Full Name:
    Greg Calo
    #16 GCalo, Feb 22, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2009
    There are three spring types that Ferrari used on the 360's.

    Can you look at your springs to see what color the identifying marks are- yellow, white, or red?
     
  17. masar

    masar Formula 3

    Aug 19, 2007
    1,367
    Czech republic
    Full Name:
    Petr
    #17 masar, Feb 22, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2009
    I removed springs from my car today. Below are some details. Shocks has to be removed as well. On front only bottom bolt and pull them off, rear complete shock must be removed. Generaly easy job. Below some info maybe useful also for someone.

    BTW with 1" 3/4 lowering the springs were practically uncompressed - the ride must be realy poor and imo even 1" must be significant difference compare stock.

    Rear springs RED
    Lenght........24,3 cm
    inner diameter....6,9 cm
    outer diameter....10 cm

    Front springs YELLOW
    Lenght........24 cm
    inner diameter....6,9 cm
    outer diameter....9 cm

    H&R 360/430 lowering springs are 23 cm rear, 22,3 cm front so they are by 2 cm shorter.

    1" = 2,54 cm
     
  18. GCalo

    GCalo F1 Veteran

    Sep 15, 2004
    7,645
    Northern California
    Full Name:
    Greg Calo
    #18 GCalo, Feb 22, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2009
    Ferrari has superceded all prior springs on 360's and 430's to those with red marks.

    Red Springs:

    front = 467.6 - 476.8 daN
    rear = 645.9 - 668.7 daN

    Yellow Springs:

    front = 449.1 - 458.3 daN
    rear = 620.4 - 633.2 daN

    to change daN to lbs divide daN by1.3558

    I would suggest you change your yellow fronts to the red marking equivalent and then try the 400# AFCO springs or equivalents which are 13%-15% increase of spring pressure.

    BTW these are based upon 241 mm or 9.488" front and 244 mm or 9.606" springs rear. These are referred to as 10" springs.
     
  19. masar

    masar Formula 3

    Aug 19, 2007
    1,367
    Czech republic
    Full Name:
    Petr
    thanks a lot!!! Now i have to get into these numbers :)
     
  20. GCalo

    GCalo F1 Veteran

    Sep 15, 2004
    7,645
    Northern California
    Full Name:
    Greg Calo
    H & R springs are quite pricey.

    The AFCO's are very competitive as are Swift Springs in LA. You can get the AFCO's from GAT Racing, 3720 E. Hardy Dr, Tucson, AZ 85716 (520) 325-4462 Fax (520) 323-1429. I can't find a web site or e-mail for them. Contact Mark. He is very helpful.

    I would prefer the Swift Springs but Colin has not been responding to my e-mails. So I am not sure if he is still active in the business.
     
  21. SSR

    SSR Formula 3

    Jun 14, 2007
    1,134
    I know AFCO springs are cheap but very good quality I really like mines I have tested at 300 plus kph and the car feels perfect and super stable in the turns,like I lowered the car using OEM coil overs and the front facia was having a really hard time with the asphalt due to the soft springs so I had to raise the ride height and get again the 4x4 Ferrari look that is simply ridiculous so I tested AFCO 10" and the results where night and day.
    Another friends had tested the springs and they also love them,I think linear springs work very good progressive springs are made to have comfort and some performance so I don't like them.

    Depending on your roads and ride height choose the proper spring rates,if you decide to go really low use hard rates.I got 2 different spring rates for the front and 2 for the rear and I finished with the hard setting.

    http://www.afabcorp.com/AFCO_Dynatech_USbrake/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=A&Category_Code=hp_coil-over-10
     
  22. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,535
    Hong Kong, Tokyo
    Full Name:
    Wayne
    #22 cwwhk, Feb 23, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2009
    You don't have to change your springs to change ride height. To lower car, just lower the bottom spring perch. 360's motion ratio is 1.67 so one downward turn of bottom spring perch is 1.5mm which equates to lowering car by 2.5mm. You need to re-align the camber and toe after changing ride height. For best performance you also should corner weigh the car to ensure properly distributed load on all 4 corners.

    You are correct that lowering the spring perch effectively lengthen the spring when the car is up on jacks, but the pre-load on 360 is quite small so under static weight of car the static spring length is the same before and after lowering the spring perch.

    You need to change your springs only if you want to change the spring rate. If you find aftermarket spring for your road going 360 is still too soft for your taste then you can always go really hard and adapt 360 Challenge race car springs to fit. Same 70mm inside diameter, but only 142mm and 162mm long front and rear. OEM springs are 241mm front and 244mm rear. Length is no problem which can be compensated by helper springs during full droop condition. Spring rate for 360C soft option is 178N/mm and 231N/mm front and rear, and hard option is 212N/mm and 285N/mm front and rear. Compare this to road car spring rate of about 57.1N/mm and 108.6N/mm front rear, even the soft option 360C springs are more than twice as hard as road car springs, which means you really need stiffer dampers to go with 360C springs, and R compound tires, and solid bushings, and so on.

    As I recall new 360C springs which are same as 430C springs are not that expensive from Ferrari. Actually made by Eibach by the way. If you are interested check with local race teams. Many take them off Challenge cars and switch to 60mm diameter Eibach springs. So you might be able to pick up som Challenge springs from local race teams for very little money.


    Personally I keep my street cars high at OEM height, so I can ride the speed bumps and parking ramps faster. On track I scrape the asphalt.
     
  23. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,535
    Hong Kong, Tokyo
    Full Name:
    Wayne
    #23 cwwhk, Feb 23, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2009
    Errr... the numbers you quoted are static load numbers not spring rates. To get spring rate you have to divide the static load force by spring compression distance at static load.

    daN is 10 Newton and conversion factor to pound force is 2.248. And mm to inch conversion factor is 0.0394.

    As I stated in previous post the spring rates are 57.1N/mm front and 108.6N/mm rear in metric units based on mid spec white springs. In imperial units they work out to be about 326 lb/inch front and 620 lb/in. rear
     
  24. GCalo

    GCalo F1 Veteran

    Sep 15, 2004
    7,645
    Northern California
    Full Name:
    Greg Calo
    I have all the figures in a binder at home.

    Once I look at that binder I can report how the stated numbers were derived.
     
  25. SSR

    SSR Formula 3

    Jun 14, 2007
    1,134
    Guys use AFCO 10" springs and have fun they are the best option I test them and work great.
     

Share This Page