Loss of power/backfire after engine gets hot | FerrariChat

Loss of power/backfire after engine gets hot

Discussion in '308/328' started by Gloria Giulio, Jun 17, 2013.

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  1. Gloria Giulio

    Gloria Giulio Karting

    Jun 6, 2013
    143
    My 1987 328 gts appears to run perfectly under normal conditions. However if the engine gets really hot, as in climbing the alps or stuck in slow moving traffic for an hour or more, the exhaust starts to make popping sounds during deceleration and there is a noticeable loss of power. This is a LHD car and the popping seems to come from the rear RHS. The popping could sound like a hole in the exhaust but it could also be backfiring. It is difficult to tell which. Once this behaviour starts then it appears to continue so long as the engine is kept running and I can reproduce the popping when stationary by accelerating and then taking my foot off the pedal. However it is not always easy to get the car into this state and it can take two or three hours driving. (I am half-hoping that driving the car might make it go away as it did not appear during the last two outings but that is probably too much to expect.)

    On asking around for ideas, initial suggestions were a leaking exhaust gas manifold but my mechanic is now inclined towards the fuel pump. However I can't get it to him again for four weeks. In the meantime, any ideas about the cause would be welcome.
     
  2. lostbowl

    lostbowl Formula 3

    Apr 30, 2009
    1,246
    Michigan
    Full Name:
    Tom
    Has the valve lash been checked? Lost
     
  3. Constance

    Constance Karting

    Apr 10, 2009
    213
    Kembs - France
    Full Name:
    Constance
    WUR failure, aneroid leaking. Check the fuel pressure
     
  4. FasterIsBetter

    FasterIsBetter F1 Veteran

    Jul 22, 2004
    5,855
    NoNJ/Jupiter FL
    Full Name:
    Steve W.
    I won't argue with Constance. She's the expert. But I would wonder why your engine is overheating. You should definitely look at that. The 328 has a decent radiator and cooling system. You should not be overheating.

    I would suggest you start with the basics. Make sure that the fans are working and coming on when the engine heats up. And make sure they are turning in the correct direction (drawing air through the radiator). If the fans aren't working, especially in slow traffic, you will overheat. If you are sitting still for a long period, it helps to rev the engine up to around 2500 rpm to help the coolant circulate.

    If fans are working properly, then start considering problems with the cooling system. You might want to replace the thermostat. Also, check the radiator and make sure it is not clogged. A 25 year old radiator could probably stand to be recored. I had this problem with my '86 when I got it a couple of years ago. I recored the radiator, changed the thermostat, put in fresh fluid, 50/50 mix, with a bottle of Red Line Water Wetter, and the car runs a nice, steady temperature now, no matter how hot it is. Also, if you still have the original hoses, consider changing them while you are at it, and be sure to bleed the system properly.

    Just a thought.
     
  5. FasterIsBetter

    FasterIsBetter F1 Veteran

    Jul 22, 2004
    5,855
    NoNJ/Jupiter FL
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    Steve W.
    p.s. Could be a problem with the water pump impeller. If you do everything else and still have a problem, check the water pump.
     
  6. Gloria Giulio

    Gloria Giulio Karting

    Jun 6, 2013
    143
    Sorry, I haven't been able to follow the thread recently.

    FasterlsBetter -- I don't believe the engine is overheating. All the gauges stay well within normal operating ranges and the fans are operating just fine, cutting in when stationary etc and when they do the temperatures soon come down again. However under certain conditions the engine clearly gets hotter than others and it is when it has been hotter for an extended period that this behaviour appears to start.

    Constance -- I'm afraid I'm not very mechanically-minded so I will need a bit of help. What would be the symptoms of a WUR failure? The car seems to start well. What is the aneroid, and is there any obvious was of testing for a leak?

    My mechanic is proposing to test the fuel pressure but I have to get the car to him when it is behaving in this way and that is not easy. In the meantime I have noted another symptom that may be helpful. When I put the car in the garage after the last time that it displayed this behaviour I noted that there was a distinct smell of petrol, particularly noticeable at the RHS engine air intake behind the door. (It had dissipated next morning.)

    The car appears to have a history that may also be significant. Last year it was taken in with a problem and the the invoice says that the fuel pump was changed because the pressure varied when the car was warm. This could be the same problem, in which case maybe the cause is not the fuel pump.

    GG
     
  7. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    13,384
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    It is a subtle problem and nobody can be really accurate from far away. I suggest the best course of action is for you, or your mechanic, to check the fuel pressure of the CIS system. System pressure, control pressure, cold, and hot are all important.
     
  8. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,509
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
    What version 328? Euro, CH87, US?
     
  9. Gloria Giulio

    Gloria Giulio Karting

    Jun 6, 2013
    143
    It is a 1987 Euro car
     
  10. Wonderbrad

    Wonderbrad Karting

    May 21, 2012
    170
    NYC
    Full Name:
    Bradley Price
    Sounds like an electrical/ignition problem to me. You are getting fuel but intermittent spark.
     
  11. Gloria Giulio

    Gloria Giulio Karting

    Jun 6, 2013
    143
    Thanks, Wonderbrad, that sounds very plausible. Do you have any idea what might develop such a fault after probably and hour of running under hot conditions?

    GG
     
  12. Wonderbrad

    Wonderbrad Karting

    May 21, 2012
    170
    NYC
    Full Name:
    Bradley Price
    #12 Wonderbrad, Jul 23, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2013
    well, since your car is injected and mine is carbed, I can't really say anything more without sounding stupid to the experts here, but whatever is controlling the fuel/air mixture is slightly off at high temp, which would cause backfiring or popping. this may also explain the petrol smell, because the system is putting fuel into the cylinder that isn't being fully ignited by spark.
    That means Constance is probably right that the warm up regulator could be the culprit--because it is perhaps feeding too much fuel in when the engine is already hot.
     
  13. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie

    Oct 19, 2007
    4,784
    Marin
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    Geno
    Mr. Bowl (or others), how would valve lash contribute or cause the symptoms explained above, I am curiuos.
     
  14. Gloria Giulio

    Gloria Giulio Karting

    Jun 6, 2013
    143
    I have just had the car looked at again with a view to trying to solve the backfire - loss of power problem. I was able to deliver the car to the garage with the symptoms and the chief mechanice thought it was an ignition problem. He found that one of the HT leads to the front bank of cylinders was badly burned so that all the sheathing was gone while others of that bank were also singed. We changed the leads to both banks. Since then the car has run more smoothly and I think it runs cooler now. However I am not sure if the original problem is completely cured as it reappeared once afterwards, though much less severely under conditions when previously it would always appear. (There is one run along the French coast that previously always caused it to start.)

    I will post this question in a separate thread as well, but could there be a link between the burnt HT leads and the backfire - loss of power. What would cause the HT leads to burn in this way? Any ideas?

    GG
     
  15. conan

    conan Formula Junior

    Nov 13, 2011
    389
    Maybe you should check the distributors for oil contamination. It could be a leaking cam seal and the oil might cause no firing at times. If there is no oil leakage, it could still be a problem with the HT leads or HT extenders. I did not really have problems with the ignition on my 328, but when I took the leads apart to change the red cover (it was broken here and there), I measured the leads and got very different results, including no connection. The sparks may still get through to the spark plugs - but it is better if the impedance in the wires are the same across all leads.
     
  16. maurice70

    maurice70 F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
    4,332
    Sydney
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    maurice T
    Glorio I wish I read this thread earlier as I would have told you that it was the HT leads.
    The exact same thing happened to me on my Euro 328.

    I had two leads that were faulty and they were the leads on the front bank.The leads were original as the car only has 21000 miles on it.

    I replaced the leads and it has run perfect ever since.
     
  17. Gloria Giulio

    Gloria Giulio Karting

    Jun 6, 2013
    143
    Thanks, Conan, I'll check that.

    Maurice70, your reply is very encouraging. The car is certainly running much more cleanly since changing the HT leads. These were probably original leads too; the car has covered 43,000km.

    GG
     
  18. andyww

    andyww F1 Rookie

    Feb 7, 2011
    2,775
    London
    The symptoms are shouting out ignition leads or plug extenders.
     
  19. lostbowl

    lostbowl Formula 3

    Apr 30, 2009
    1,246
    Michigan
    Full Name:
    Tom
    When the lash is too tight it only gets worse as heat builds up and then unburned fuel is ignited in the exhaust system. When I purchased mine one EX valve actually had a negative value and it started fine but when it reached temp the front header would glow and the exhaust would pop. The fix was easy and the EX valves were replaced with SS.Needless to say there are several scenarios that would produce these symptoms. lost
     
  20. Gloria Giulio

    Gloria Giulio Karting

    Jun 6, 2013
    143
    One of the symptoms (I assume it is linked anyway) of the backfire - loss of power problem has been a noticeable smell of petrol in the right-hand side (passenger side on a LHD Euro car) air intake after a run. It is not always there and I normally have to stick my nose into the air intake to smell it. (The car has been checked and there is no evidence of a fuel leak anywhere.) Does anybody else experience this?

    GG
     
  21. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    May 4, 2001
    36,228
    Birmingham, AL
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    Tommy
    Not sure how different the 328 is than my QV, but I had the exact same symptoms (and I mean EXACTLY). It was a bad crank position sensor. Car would heat up and the one (of 3) at the 11:00 position would fail.

    Those things go bad after awhile.
     
  22. Gloria Giulio

    Gloria Giulio Karting

    Jun 6, 2013
    143
    #22 Gloria Giulio, Sep 26, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
    That is an interesting thought. Superformance have a Flywheel Pulse Unit/Crank Sensor. Is that the same sensor?

    Edit: Hold on that. A quick check elsewhere here suggests that there is only one sensor on the 328 rather than 3 on the 308 and that is very rarely fails. I'll get it checked though.

    GG
     
  23. conan

    conan Formula Junior

    Nov 13, 2011
    389
    Interesting ... I did some work near the crank sensor (there are two sensors, one for the speedo and one for the ignition, I think, correct me if I am wrong) and noticed that the wire was almost broken for the front-mounted one (closest to gas tank). The jacket had been worn down at a certain location revealing one of the inner wires and down to bare metal. I am not sure what could cause this other than vibration from the engine. Anyway, I fixed it before anything would happen to the wire (water ingress, cut-off, short-cut to ground etc).
     
  24. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    May 4, 2001
    36,228
    Birmingham, AL
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    Tommy
    A QV has 3. I wasn't sure about the 328.
     
  25. andyww

    andyww F1 Rookie

    Feb 7, 2011
    2,775
    London
    The 328 has one TDC sensor and one degree sensor. If either of these were to completely fail the engine would stop. It is possible that they could be flaky though and giving low output, or a wiring problem such as a poor contact. The connectors on the 328 above the LH top shock mount are prone to water ingress and corrosion and the sensors go through here.

    Its definitely an ignition problem so if the ignition leads and plug extenders have been ruled out (have they?) there is not a huge amount else it could be. Also check the LT connectors on the bottom of the coils for corrosion.
     

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