Looking for a 330GT 2+2

What would the Webers would do with the O2 sensor data?

 

Well said!

 

Kerry,

Is 8719 new to the registry?

The seat bottoms look odd to me. Is this simply from deteriorating foam or a poor replacement?

If it is truly a one owner car, I'd love to hear the owner's story!

Regards,

Art S.

PS. cdu, welcome aboard! Yes, the O2 sensors are for the Dyno test cell. While modern induction might be an interesting project, modernizing an old Ferrari kind of defeats its purpose - If you want to see how a Ferrari V-12 behaves with modern technology, it is much more efficient to start with a modern Ferrari V-12 (then drop it into a dead 250 GTE carcas ).

 

Yes and no.

Mr Kessler/OH evidently owned it, but I don't know the date. He died a while ago, supposedly with a collection of ~80 cars, including 8719. This information came from a nephew.

Other than that, I don't know anything about the car. The toolkit looks original to me based on the pictures on eBay.

The seats look just about like mine, which are the original leather.

 

Norbert Hofer of Gran Touring Classics in Long Beach, ca has a single headlight silver (new paint)/red car for sale. Mechanicals have been updated. Nice car. Price probably is over $100K I don't know the serial no.
Wally Clark
7399

 

Art, 8719's seats look original, but tired.

Here are mine before and after re-dying.
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So you've got headers for each type of motor you tune? I hope your customers recognize that you "do it right". It always amazes me that people would spend lots of money on rebuilds and they don't dyno tune the motor after, or that they dyno tune the motor but don't put in proper telemetry. Question -- would a clamp-on pyrometer on each exhaust runner work if you don't want to put O2 sensors on each runner (and of course an O2 sensor in each exhaust port out the tail)?

I was wondering because the options are: It's part of the dyno bench or the headers are going onto the car and the O2 ports are getting plugged (which would probably not pass the concourse or whatever exams some of you guys seem so interested in passing), or the owner was going to leave the O2 sensors in place and I couldn't really see a reason for that because, as someone else said, the webers aren't going to be doing much with the O2 feedback...

As far as induction goes -- it seems like it would be pretty reversible to put a TWM / EFI system onto a motor -- you'd be swapping the webers and making a surge tank and a couple other fuel related switches but nothing dramatic. The advantage is that the motor would probably sound the same, look almost exactly the same, and be far more reliable in every-day use. I know if I owned a ferrari I'd want to use it every day there wasn't salt on the road. I just can't seem to get a C4 past the CFO(wife).

Anyhow, Sorry to delurk and poke my nose where it doesn't belong. Please keep sharing these pictures, they're wonderful.

 

"Customers?"

 

Those sampling tubes go in the tool bag?

They ride there in my cars, if removable.

 

9001, courtesy of TomS.

 

Matt and Kerry,

Thanks! Matt - what did you use for the redye and are you happy with it?


cdu,

Not my bench (the ones I play on are a bit fancier and not mine either ). I don't know if the headers are from the car or bench. If they are from the car, the ports would be completely hidden by the heat shields once in the car.

I don't think the pyrometer would have a fast enough response time to be fully useful and I'm not sure how you would calibrate it for a given header/engine set-up, I would suspect that the heat conduction rates vary enough to be an issue. A pyrometer project seems like a lot of effort that might be a fun project but a set of good wide range oxygen sensors would be better and I would think that a home made oxygen sensor rig would be cheaper than the pyrometer set-up (mind you, these are just my thoughts after a good dinner and a bit of wine ).

In my opinion, oxygen sensors and other fast response/feedback stuff is useless on old engine technology, besides (at most) aiding the initial tune. A carb's mixture response is too poorly controlled and slow.

As far as induction goes: the induction noise and the beauty of these lovely instruments called Webbers adds a lot to the motor. If an old Ferrari is properly set up and maintained, it is quite reliable - so reliability is not a sufficiently valid argument to justify any change (ignition is another matter... ).

My previous point was slightly different. There is an easier path to get what you want: As there are a number of older Ferraris (330GT, 250 GTE, 250 GT PF Coupe, etc) that have 'donated' their drive trains to other cars, you could get one of these and drop in an engine/driveline out of a wrecked 550 or equivalent and get the reliable, improved performance, 60's V-12 Ferrari you were looking for.

Alternately, get a 400i or 412, they are less expensive than a C4, with similar performance, are fuel injected and have rustproofing (Alex L. has been using his as a daily driver in NYC, including in the snow and salt of winter, for several years now.

Regards,

Art S.

 

Another detail for this conversation is how bomb proof these motors can be if well maintained, my 330GT #9727 has 95,000 kms on her, to the best of my knowledge (I have complete maintenance records from the early 90s) the motor has never been apart, nor the heads off. As part of my annual run through of periodic maintenance I just ran the compression test. The car is nearly straight 110 per cylinder (one at 114), it does not smoke, it will eat a quart of oil about 1500 miles, it always starts and always runs. Most of all every drive is an absolute joy. For sure it has more than enough patina, but far from reducing its value, it increases it: I drive it to the grocery and god knows where, never care about the weather, occasionally take it to the Pentagon (I too rarely have time to allow proper warm ups), of my cars it draws the most admiring glances and over the years at the grocery stores and such I have gotten probably 100 young boys in the driver's seat so their parents could snap a picture. Singularly, that is my greatest pleasure from owning it, knowing that some of those grinning kids will be on F Chat in 30 years looking for one of the Ferrari that to them evokes all of the smell, feel and racing heart of that distant day in the shopping center parking lot. Truly, if I can only save one car from my burning garage, will always be my 330. M

 

The only real advantage, if there is any, to a pyrometer, is that it would allow you to tune motors with headers that don't have the O2 sensor bungs welded on. Like you say -- probably not fast enough to detect changes to be useful.

In looking for pictures of TWM throttle bodies that have the exact same form-factor as weber carbs, I came upon a picture of a vintage ferrari with just such a setup --

http://www.twminduction.com/ThrottleBody/ThrottleBody2900-FR.html

I suspect it probably sounds very similar to or identical to webers, and with a bit of effort the stock air cleaner box could be made to fit. I bet the modifications are all easy to reverse, also. The advantage over webers would be the occasionally run car wouldn't have to worry as much about gumming up the carbs or washing the cylinders with gas at startup, and it would eliminate the chance of hydrolock if a carb leaks into a cylinder. But, of course, I'm not saying anyone *should* do this, just that it would be an interesting project.

I'd be open to a 400i/412 if I could find one with a manual transmission. They're truly the lost generation. Has anyone made an adapter plate to allow hooking up a modern 5 speed to replace the GM slushbox? It seems like parts support for the 400/412 is a bit worse than the earlier cars (glass, lights, interior bits, etc), and I have to say the C4 is a *very* nice looking car.

 

That link isn't behaving properly -- try this one instead

http://www.twminduction.com/ThrottleBody/dave_levy_ferrari.html

 

What is this car? - photo from above link
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cdu,

You have made my argument for me ! The engine in the picture is from a 400i. If I remember correctly, the owner has now upgraded to a 550 (or similar) engine.


Yale,

The owner of the yellow car is on this site, I don't remember his name at the moment.


cdu,

If you are going to do mods, you might as well start with an automatic and convert it - yes, several have been done - they are a very inexpensive starting point. However, if you are going to stay stock, you can get a 5-speed driver that needs a bit of sorting in the $20s. Parts availibility is fine - about the same as the older cars.

Regards,

Art S.

 

There's a 1965 330 GT at Driversource for $76.5k. This is about 2 miles from my house. If anyone would like me to check it out let me know.

I can't seem to get a direct link to the car but here's their inventory page.

http://www.driversource.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=28

 

I'm not a big fan of the 4HL cars, but this one is really nice. Interesting how the right color can really change the lines of a car.

 

Also interesting that this car appears to be an "interim" car, with the top-mounted pedals and 5-speed gearbox. Tom Yang has the Interims start at SN 6939, this one is 6937.

 

I apologie, Art. I didn't realize I had an unanswered question.

Leather dye was from www.liquidleather.com. I'm very pleased with the results.

The 5-speed, hanging pedals and (optional) air conditioning are all very nice to have. If you add the "improved" looks of a 2 headlight Series II, then the slight premium of the Series II is pretty easy to overlook.

 

I believe that the first interim car is 6911, not 6939 as previously thought. 6937 is definitely an interim car with a 5 speed per build sheet.

 

Has anyone actually purchased a nice 330GT in the last three years for 75k?

 

That's a good question.

 

Has anyone even bought a nice one for $85k?

Doug

 

What is a nice 330 gt worth?