Has anyone ever built a 308 with a longitudinal engine? Just wondering.
Are you thinking of trying to make your own 288GTO? I'm not very knowledgable regarding Ferrari projects of this sort, tbh. I've always had the impression that, generally speaking, most Ferrari owners would rather keep their car original, or very close to that spec.
The Michelotti built 308 GT/M prototype had a longitudinal engine placement. Of course, it also had a custom-built tube frame... Somewhere in my boxes of old slides I think I have some of this car from ~ 1983.
Interesting first post, you must have read alot before subscribing To the OP, someone will chime in, but I think there has been one or a few people who have changed the engine placement in the 308, but i'm not sure. I know we have had a V-12 conversion, at least 3 or 4. Cant recall on the engine placement. James in Denver
There are the restorers. Then there are also those that enjoy modifying. I see plenty of them at the club, at the track and on this list. In its purest form, a Ferrari has to be purpose-built. That is much of their legacy.
Ha, yeah, I was going to make an introduction thread, but I just dived right in, instead! Not sure why... I didn't want to come across as one of the so-called, "internet-experts", but I do love to read about cars, seeing as I don't have the money. I also enjoy listening to those who know more than I do. I like the idea of any high-performance car being taken beyond it's original spec, or taking something that seems ordinary and making it extraordinary. Not lairy, just, "how would I improve this car? That being said, it's always great to see a piece of motoring history preserved, just as it's maker intended. Nice to meet you all, I'm Tom.
I seem to recall that a several months ago, someone with great fabricating skills was doing a Northstar transplant onto a 308 GTB, but I can't find the thread. Anybody help here?
Sorry - it would be ages before I could find them. There are a few shots of the cars on the web but in a quick search I could not find any decent engine views. Sort of related - when Honda took the NSX to Le Mans at least one of the cars had the engine switched to a longitudinal layout - I think the Kremer car in 1994 if memory serves.
OK, thanks for trying. If you can put a V12 in a 308, I'm sure you could spin the motor 90 degrees. BTW, I am not interested in a 288 clone. Frankly, pretty much the only thing I don't like about the 3x8 cars are the transverse engines. So, I am curious as to options should I ever decide to go deeply into my car. I would imagine that one of the biggest obstacles would be the relative positions of the rear wheels and the firewall. But seemingly the 288's solved this problem; I am not familiar with the specifics of their design.
288 GTO has a longer wheelbase, the rear wheels are a lot further back than on the 308. There's a couple of 355 powered 308s out there, and a few that have Chevy V8s mounted longitudinally. There's the Norwood GTO replica that has a longitudinally mounted 12, not that it's ever been finished. I haven't ever seen one modified that way that retains the 3.0 motor.
I assume, then, that this is not really feasible unless the rear wheels are moved back. To me the proportions of a 308 are already perfect; no way would I change the external appearance. I wonder how the Chevy transplants handled it.
There was a guy on here who was documenting his transplantation of a 355 drivetrain into a 308/328. Norwoods also built a salt flats 288 GTO repop (strecthed GTB) w/ a bored out 454 longitudinally. It can and has been done severall different ways. There are a couple of comanies who specialize in 911/chevy conversions, so the mating of a SBC to a Porsche tansaxle is pretty well sorted out by now. In a longit 308 you'd have to work out the gearing somehow since the the whole assembly would be in backwards compared to the 911 set-up. http://www.bobnorwood.com/5-liter%20288%20Power.htm Do some googling and you'll find more
From what I've seen in various posts, most use a G50-type transmission. There's a guy with a Chevy transversely mounted in a Mondial with an Audi tranny, not sure how that's done. Northstar V8, Chevy SBC, Pontiac V6 in 308s, Turbo 4 in a 348 -- there's a bunch of FrankenFerraris out there.
I guess the question is why? I guess you could sit the engine lower in the frame longitudinally, but it sure seems like a lot of work for just that.
As he said, a LOT of work -- and he's the master of understatement You spin it around, you'll then need a different transmission instead of the stock piece. You might be able to adapt a Ferrari 348 part, or add in a Porsche or similar transaxle. In either case, you're looking at something that most likely won't line up with the existing wheelbase, so you're stuck with either lengthening the wheelbase (and changing the location of the wheelwells) or possibly some really radically angled CV joints. Even if you can get away with the latter, those kind of angles wear out CV joints quickly. You get around the physical packaging (don't forget, you have to get gas tanks back in, shifter linkages, etc.) you now have a situation where you either have to cut an access panel in the firewall to do the belts OR remove the motor for every belt change, and the 308 isn't designed to drop the motor out the bottom. You've done a LOT of work and the car isn't even faster. If you're going to go that far, swap in a 355 or 360 drivetrain, or a SBC+Getrag, or something that has more pop.
The why not is that is won't make the car any better. It won't be faster and it won't solve any problem. Now if you are doing it to install a 348/355/360/430/tr drive train it might make sense....although in the case any of the v8s I think it would be easier to adapt to the stock trans and stay transverse....I think that's the way I would do it and I know of one guy plotting just such a conversion with a 360 engine. Up though the 412 V12s will also go transverse Ive complicated that a bit the way I chose to do it, but its not that bad if a little moderation is shown. The boxer or TR engine/trans will go longitudinally but a little frame work is needed.
'Better' is relative. The only thing it would change for me would be the aesthetics. An engine running fore-and-aft has better design flow IMHO. This statement has nothing to do with the engineering. Or of the original 308 design: a timeless classic. Since my ideal would be this design with a longitudinal layout I thought I would ask the question. I must say that your own work to fit that V12 helped incent me to ask. It seems clear that there are many who rise to the challenge of doing things quite differently on these cars. And that is another thing I like. That sounds interesting - but it would face me with another design conflict. LOL. I am not crazy about boxer engines. Yes, I understand that there are important engineering reasons. To me, however, an engine should be inline or a vee, preferably less than or equal to 90 degrees. Again, my design aesthetic. I am probably a little different than most. Some folks don't care what the mechanicals look like. I care as much if not more. BTW I have been following your work. The design and execution are fantastic.
The 288 GTO had a longer wheelbase (as previously stated) of about 5 inches. This was done to make room for the longitudinal placement of the 3.0 L engine. There is a guy somewhere on FerrariChat, who documented with great pictures, a very major conversion from 308 to 288 GTO-look (after front end damage from a fox). He didn't change the engine position, but undertook the major external looks of the GTO by cutting new wheel wells, and extending the suspension and wheelbase to the right position. This is what you would have to do, in order for your engine to fit longitudinally. ...Or, with prices coming down, you could invest less than $700,000. and buy a real 288 GTO. If you decide to undertake the engine rotation, please post pictures of your project here on FerrariChat. I know everyone would like to see your progress as it happens.
The 288 is a direct evolution of the 308. Its basically a stretched 308 with plastic body panels. But the motor sits lower and slightly more forward, because by dropping it down off that tall 308 gearbox, they had room to slide it forward a bit. Lengthening the wheelbase to accomodate the inline tranaxle, coupled with sliding the engine forward, changed the weight bias from 60/40 to nearly a perfect 50/50. They also increased the track. So between making the car wider, longer, more neutral weght bias, and lower CG, even with the same weight, brakes and HP as a stock 308, a 288 would run circles around a 308. The F-40 is a direct evolution of the 288/308. If you study the parts of the car and its construction, you will note that the center cab section very closely resembles a 308. The windshield, side glass, rear glass, its all 308. The F-40 is the same type tube frame chassis construction, same basic dash, instrument pod, I am amazed no one has tried to use a 308 platform to build an F-40 clone. The 355 in the 308 is most likely a very poor handling car, if not outright dangerous and deadly. If you look at pics of the design, the drive axles angle forwards from the gearbox to the wheel hubs. Hard acceleration (torque) would tend to push the rear of the car upwards, and taking your foot off the throttle would have the opposite effect, yanking the rear end down. There is a very good reason car builders keep the drive axles aligned to perfect 90 degree angles to the cars centerline. That 355/08 really needs to have the chassis extended ala 288 to make that powertrain work properly. So I guess I am saying I like the 355 powertrain swap into that 308, its a neat upgrade, but the job wasnt completed. Some years ago I heard a rumor someone was building a longitudinal V-12 308. The motor was supposedly 4 valve with forced induction shooting for 1200 HP. The car was going to be in glass body panels with the goal to keep weight to 2600 pounds (2 pounds per HP). Never heard any more about it. IIRC it was someone down in TX or the deep south. Georgia?
Thanks for the information. This is all very interesting. Was it the 288's superior architecture that led Ferrari to eventually abandon transverse engines?
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