Leads on 308 GT4 appreciated

So if a parts car is worth $50K you are not going to find a nice one for that kind of money. And if a parts car needs at least an additional $20K spending on it, the market for a 'nice' car is really $70K and up.

It's supply and demand, but it's hard to see anyone selling a nice car for parts money unless it's a fire sale.

FWIW there are no cars advertised under about £40K in the UK any more, and it will cost you at least £60K to find a good one. If you buy a £40K one you should probably have £5-10K put aside just to keep it running.

 

Their eBay add.

 

We are all saying the same thing. Buyers will never believe us owners. Everyone thinks we are full of it, out to lunch, or simply they know better than the us.

Everyone needs to take their lumps. Let them, they will be here in a couple years joining the choir.

 

Hate to call it but this is bogus logic. It will take many hundreds of man hours of work over a period of years to disassemble and market the pieces. You can't value that at zero while valuing the work to finish the car at $100 an hour (and that paint quote is egregious).

Pretty much all Ferraris are worth more in pieces than whole, if you are willing do work for nothing.

If you put a value on both types of labor, guess what: cars that are damaged, have lots of mechanical or cosmetic needs, or are missing lots of parts make sense to part out. The rest are sold as complete cars.

 

Good day,

Gotcha. Looking at the Ebay Ad is appears that the Ebay's VIN info is BHCC's stock number... One would need to contact BHCC to confirm, but given the picture of the engine bay showing the chassis number, it looks as if the chassis number for this car is 14490.

Cheers,

Sam

 

Hate to call it but this is bogus logic.

Hate? Really? Oh please&#8230; <LoL!> Okay, what is bogus? What logic? What argument? To argue against how I value the options I have, given my current situation, merely proves my point regarding, there being so much disagreement in this thread.

I actually have a Ferrari sitting in my driveway. I was planning to restore it and just secured a loan a few weeks ago to do just that. Then (before spending) looking at the prices asked for just: engines and gearboxes, wheels, hubcaps, windshields (someone here in another thread his having a ***** of a time finding an original one, btw), hubcaps and a few other popular parts, I began to wonder, &#8220;What is it worth if I parted it out?&#8221;. ​

It will take many hundreds of man hours of work over a period of years to disassemble and market the pieces.

It took me all of 3-days to disassemble it. (FWIW: go read my thread!) It may take a long time to sell some of the parts. But I have to base any decision to rebuild or part-out based on the cost of each option without respect to time. Even a dismanteler cannot afford to charge for waiting. He can only charge the value of the part, not the time it takes to sell it.

Imagine a dismanteler saying, &#8220;This mirror is $50, but this other one is $150&#8221;.

A prospetive buyer asks, &#8220;Why is the price higher for that one?&#8221;

Dismanteler replies, &#8220;Well, I&#8217;ve had that $50 one on the shelf for only 3-weeks, so I can sell it for less. The other one I&#8217;ve had for 6-months, so it is worth more. After all, I deserve to be paid for my labor!&#8221;.

Buyer replies, &#8220;I see. Well, if the price continues to go up in this manner, I doubt you&#8217;ll ever sell that other mirror&#8221;.

&#8220;That&#8221;, is flawed logic. You must value the time at zero. ​

You can't value that at zero while valuing the work to finish the car at $100 an hour

What do you mean by &#8220;value that&#8221;? The time it takes to sell parts? Of course I can! I don&#8217;t think you can compare that to the cost-per-hour to finish the car. The processes and payoffs are different. The value in selling a part is the value of the part, not the labor to sell the part. The cost of finishing the car is the value of labor + materials relative to the final value, based on the price a buyer is willing to pay for the finished product. You cannot value the labor of selling a part. The part is worth what a person is willing to pay for it &#8211; period. This principle was proved by Jevons, Menger and Walras in the 1860&#8217;s-1870&#8217;s, with the marginalist revolution.

The value of the car (in the end) is also what a person is willing to pay for it. But the cost of that part has already been a paid. The potential cost of the car is the previous price paid + restoration. Correct me if I&#8217;m wrong, but I really don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s the kind of aggregated valuation you are seeking to validate. Are you? ​

(and that paint quote is egregious).

When the cost of a perfect job vs. a good or even excellent job is $5000, and the added value exceeds the cost of the difference between the cost of the two options, the seller worth buying from, is the one who is willing to risk the cost of doing better quality work. ​

Pretty much all Ferraris are worth more in pieces than whole, if you are willing do work for nothing.

Is that not true, even when labor is not a consideration? ​

If you put a value on both types of labor, guess what: cars that are damaged, have lots of mechanical or cosmetic needs, or are missing lots of parts make sense to part out. The rest are sold as complete cars.

That last statement is false. Otherwise, I would not have made my original post. People have different reasons for doing what they do. No one can force me to sell my car as "complete", if I choose not to. That choice is mine. If you don't believe the condition of my car, then (again) go read my thread.

As for labor: There is only one type of labor in this paradigm: restoration. If you actually had a reasonably decent car sitting in front of you and had the money to re-assemble it to a respectible level of quality and the option to do either, I think you would be forced to humbly admit: the incentive to restore is somewhat lacking. If not, (at least in my opionion) Raphael would have had my car in his shop last week!

Even if the car were already painted and I was sitting with the engine on the hoist ready to install - I'd do it knowing that each sold separately (rebuilt engine/gearbox and freshly painted car) would probably fetch more than the completed car.

All of this arm-chair pontificating is a little funny really. It&#8217;s like Merlin said in Excalibur!

Merlin: &#8220;Looking at the future, is like looking at this cake. Until you taste it, what do you really know? And then of course&#8230;&#8221; (Merlin takes a bite) &#8220;&#8230;it&#8217;s too late&#8221;.

There are no atheists in foxholes.

Buy a Ferrari first. Then talk about the value of your options.

Clarity comes from engagement, not from thinking about it. ​

Just my 2-cents. &#61514;

 

LOL such clarity...from living in the six. Cheap=Lumps! +1

 

I was done after 1 big lump... Lol

 

Haha...one big lump is good...after too many little lumps then you threaten to "part your car out".

 

Yup! So true... so true...

Even at just $10k, the lower price it would fetch would probably just be an even swap. Of course, then I could at least drive the car for a few months first. And maybe that's worth doing; I haven't figured that out yet.

 

This is a recent listing (today) from a very reputable dealer that has a good pulse on market:

1975 Ferrari Dino | San Francisco Sports Cars | Buy, Sell, and Store Exotic and Classic Cars in the SF Bay Area

 

Well Driver I guess if you have no money to paint the car and lots of time on your hands that you value at zero, then go for it. If it were mine I would find someone to paint it black for about half of what you were quoted and enjoy it, but I see now that your post was actually an ad so I apologize for taking it as a bona fide post seeking opinions that you clearly don't want. But you ought to scratch up the $20 or whatever it is to post your ad in the classifieds.

 

Not quite sure what you are expecting ... they are 40 year old low volume Italian made cars. I recommend you don't take them through a car wash.

There is very limited room for adjustment, but the one in the link above actually looks pretty good.

 

Panel gaps are great on my car. Granted it only has 26k miles. I haven't noticed poor fitment on other original GT4's I've seen in person either. These cars didn't get much love for mny years being at the bottom of the value charts similar to Mondials and 308's in general so you will see cars that got neglected for years. A lot more of them are being brought back to their original condition with higher quality restorations. Increases in value leads to increases in the numbers being restored and quality of restorations. Take early 911's for example. Really neglected for years and even though originally they had great fit and finish, very few used ones did unless they are very original. Even the ones dragged out of swamps can look like they have perfect gaps after a high quality restoration. I guess the 206/246 is a good example too. You see a lot higher level of restorated cars now that they are worth more than when they were cheap.

 

I have no desire to sell my car or to part it out. But I am in the unique position of being in the middle of a restoration that has taken way too long to complete and that gives me a perspective on the disagreements expressed in this thread on the value of a decent running GT4. My aim is to "add to" the information in the forum by highlighting a very probable reason (with sound reasoning) as to why there is no consensus on this issue. It is like debasing currency, when the melt-value is worth more than the coin. So a nickel that is worth .588 cents, gets cut, like they did last year or the year before. Those who have nickels and can see what is happening exercise Gresham's Law - bad money drives out the good. But as you seem to be more of a "labor theory of value" type guy, the logic of that parallel may be of little or no interest to you.

Normally, I'd just let it go. But your post deserves a retort, because you're projecting.

So...

I come here and express my opinion because I find the information on FerrariChat valuable and when I post, I seek to add to that value with my opinions. There are always people who seek to puff themselves up by criticizing others. But that does not add value to the forum, it only degrades the quality of the threads. Disagree if you like, but you can be considerate and not be sarcastic when you do it. Consideration of your fellow F-Chatters, is an implicit part of being a valuable member of the community.

Your choice was to disagree with the predicate of my point. The point was that the disagreement on value stems from the inherent value of the GT4, versus what people are willing to pay for one that is (for lack of a better term) a "driver", and not how much it would cost to cut a car up and sell it - which is what predicated my thesis. I defended my position by answering each of your points.

And in answer to that, you simply retreat to an unwarranted insult.

In the absence of good reasons for things people do or say that we find: bad, incorrect, wrong or that we (for whatever reason) simply disagree with, we begin to look for bad reasons that they do or say particular things. When bad reasons for those things are not readily apparent, we begin to look within ourselves and search for reasons we (ourselves) might do those same things. And finding one or two that seem to fit and within them finding a natural symmetry that springs from the self-validating nature of our own minds, we being to form the opinion that what we think we see must be so and that what those other people are doing, is that same thing that we would do. So we dig within the well of our own sense of guilt, shame and incompetence, and then project those traits on those whose motives we don't understand.

Do your integrity a favor - scratch-up the $15 and buy a subscription before you try to shame others for not spending money to help enhance the value of FerrariChat.

Just my 2-cents, of course!

BTW: Where's the Doctor? Isn't there are card to play for this?

 

David- let it go. Russ Gould pisses down the gt4 every chance he can and enjoys ramping up the rhetoric. I just ignore his posts. He mainly states that cars are trading secretly for less than advertised but never provides true back-up. I know of cars that traded at listing/market sources from local reputable dealers. It is a waste of time to educate him on market. He is on the outside looking in. I can not figure out why he spends time in these threads by adding no value.

 

xpensivewino - For hand built production cars the gt4 was meant to get built fast so yes panel gaps are not perfect but tend to be usually good. You will see factory paint drips, You will see factory light spray/fade at the bottom of the car where Luigi was too tired to bend over and get the last 6" of a good coat. These are things I like to point out about Italy in the 70's and each car is hand built and unique.

For value I look at it this way. value goes up value goes down. If I sell it and loose 20k below what I think it is worth than market that is a better loss than any newer car on the market outside very few examples. If I sell for same then great - sell for more even better. But buy the car if you like it enjoy it and don't look back until you have to sell.

As others have said spend a bit more for a good example, you will enjoy it more. If you buy on the leading bottom, then you will spend more than you thought and be frusterated and the ownership fun will be lost. I spent more for a good car and have had nothing but fun with it in my garage and not a shop garage.

 

"I have no desire to sell my car or to part it out. "

What's this then?

"A guy just stopped by and rang my doorbell, asking if I was interested in selling my'75 Dino. Searchable here on FChat under my name or the s/n 10314

The engine has been rebuilt, Eric Sander at AutoGallery reconditioned the gearbox for me and I still have to complete the rebuild of the carbs. It has been sanded down with a coat of primer applied in preparation for bodywork and a coat of Blu-Dino-Met. The bumpers (orig picnic + newer style for rear), series-2 grill, doors and all of the glass have been removed. The doors have been rebuilt with all of the rust removed by Gary at Bristol, near the AutoGallery. But there's still a sizable amount of work to be done. Raphael at Arroyo (the shop for Ferrari of BH), quoted me $15K to complete the car.

I told the guy that came today, that I would consider $45K. He countered with $30K and I declined. Then $35K then $40K and I gave him my name and number and said, "Let me think about it". He went on his way, promising to get back to me on Monday. "Get ready to sell that car", he said as he left.

I haven't really considered selling it as-is, but I've been asked that question several times in IM, here on F-Chat. So I thought I'd give a heads-up.

If you're interested, speak-up; but do it quickly."

and several more similar "hint hint my car is for sale at the right price" postings. They all look like clandestine ads to me.

Put the car in the classifieds and quit the amateur psychology hour stuff.

 

Yep. That's true; it's when I first brought the car home and had no room for much of it.

But that is not the case now and I'm faced with the cost of a restoration. And you're right too, I could just do it for $10k. Maybe even less. And I will; I know I will. But then I'm not worried about selling it to someone who can sell it for more than I did, and then live to regret it.

Cheers!

FWIW: I have turned down two people interested in the car here in PM; the car is not for sale nor is it available for parts. But you're welcome to come talk GT4's, anytime!

 

The cars sold in secret, are the cars that are sold for more.

...just sayin'

 

Enough of this nonsense.



"What he said..."
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Anthony Rimicci (also here on FChat, but I've forgotten his screenname) has a dark burgundy or prugna. He works with his dad (Santo) in their shop (off Reseda just south of Parthenia) where they repair/restore (he also races them) Alfa Romeo's. There's a video of Anthony with his car diving, as he talks about his impressions of the GT4 Dino - in fact, there's probably a thread on it here somewhere in the 308 section. A lot of the interview shots were done in their garage too, and you can see the line of Alfa's alongside the Ferrari. It's well worth watching. BTW: He's also local.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA8poGGmPIU
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Can't we all get along?

j/k

After reading this thread I see two numbers frequently thrown out there for a 'reasonable' (say a 'lower 2, high 3') 308 GT4

50K and 70K

let's split the difference, find a car for 60K - and consider yourself good!

OR

Sell the Porsche now, put the money in the bank and then wait for the next downturn...you should get a deal when the next recession hits.

I believe the 308 GT4 still has a lot of legs to appreciate long term (20-30 years). Just my humble opinion.