Anyone have any good videos, pictures, diagrams, or engineering detail on the corkscrew at Laguna Seca? (As one of the greatest corners, I want to do a little analysis of what makes it so great.)
Brian, While i have never driven it, i know a former co-worker that has raced Laguna. He said that first of all the apex going into it is blind because it is falling away from you. Then because of the steepness of the drop it makes it tough to keep his motorcycle properly balanced thru the turns of the corkscrew. I would imagine that there would have to be some driving style changes in a car to keep it on line and on track also.
Brian, I know this is a somewhat unusual (and adolescent ) avenue of research, but I would suggest getting your hands on Gran Turismo 3 A-spec for the Playstation 2 or finding someone who has it. The laguna seca track in GT3 is the best reproduction I've ever seen, definetly fun to play around in. Sadly, GT3 didn't get Ferrari licensing (so no Ferraris to choose from in the game), but it should still give you a decent idea of driving around the corkscrew and the layout. Additionally, and as you probably already know, you can download the video from the Laguna Seca site @ http://www.laguna-seca.com/GeneralInfo/index.cfm?FuseAction=Video but in my mind, short of actually driving on the real thing, you can't beat the video game if all you're after is experiencing and studying the corner. Good luck
That's good to know that its a good simulation... I'll check it out. (I have GT3 sitting right behind me... I just never have time to play it... but then I'm not real motivated, as without being able to "feel" the tires giving, I've never been able to get the hang of driving a PS2 game.) Thanks,
Brian- If you're driving it right... Brake point is pretty much blind... Turn in point it blind... Grip falls away substantially... First thing you really see apart from the sky is the wall when it starts leveling out... then the middle tree that you should be aiming for after the turn in point... I think those are the "reasons" why so many people think it's a great part of the track. Personally, I think T2 (hairpin) is far harder to master. You can see it, you know what's coming from far away, and there's no hiding- doing the corkscrew right comes down to blind faith that you know the track and car 100%, speed isn't too high since you're climbing a pretty big hill and because of that the brake zone is actually not so bad in reality (in your mind it's kind of nutty)... T2 shows whether or not you you have the skills to negotiate downhill/high speed-low speed/brake zone/5-2nd downshift/double apex turn. Laguna is a finesse/braking track- sort of like Road Atlanta (if I recall correctly, it's been a long time since I've been there), not like too many out there. For me, the corkscrew is a beautiful series of turns when watching as a spectator... T2-7, the rythme and how it flows is what makes the track tick in my opinion. FYI- the video game sims of the track are only about as good as the video game sims of the cars... in my opinion leaving a lot to be desired. In reality Laguna is pretty different in terms of where and how to place the car on the track, the speeds (and lack of true sensory input like g's, brake feel and vibration), and actual scale of the the track. It's close, but only in the scale of a video game. I personally do not think it's close enough to derive any true track learning for me... I'm the type that has to actually drive it to learn it.
The tree Nick is talking about isn't in any of the video games. It's just a huge oak that you aim for. The corner then gradually comes to you as the car descends. T2 is quite a challenge indeed. Late apexing or double apexing, depending on the car, the speeds you can carry, and of course, if you are competing. I commented once on here about someone double apexing as opposed to late apexing - which, without looking at times, and only speeds at markers before T3, were entered slightly faster. However, as the individual commented, in racing, if you late apex, you open that up to be passed.
Different corners for different folks, I guess. You approach the Corkscrew flat out up a long hill from the dangerous Turn 6. You have to bend in a bit to get the car at the right attitude for braking. As I recall, the brake zone is uphill at first, but levels out just before turn in; braking difficulties here can have dire results, as poor Gonzalo Rodriguez discovered. The top of the hill just begs for the ill advised pass attempt; of course, the classic ill advised pass attempt (successful) was The Pass, Zanardi v. Herta. Assuming you get the turn in right, you aim for the tree, and in the couple of cars I've driven one can be flat very early. As Schatten says, the corner then gradually comes to you - but you have to get ready for left handed Turn 9, which also begs you to take it flat. If your courage is greater than your grip or skill, there's (or there used to be) a nice ditch at track out which will test your ride height, kidneys, front spoiler, etc. I guess the others like the art of Turn 2; I prefer the drama of 6-10. Another thing about the Corkscrew: one of my favorite spectating spots in all of the US is the top of the hill overlooking the Corkscrew. If the crowd is thin enough, you can watch the start of the race and first few turns from one side of the hill (taking time to see a bit of Monterey Bay), then run to the other side of the hill to watch the back of the track. Great stuff. Canada Corner, and the hill at Lime Rock, are two more great spots for watching a race. I believe every track should have a signature corner, much as a golf course might be said to have a signature hole. Turn 2 is tricky but forgettable; the Corkscrew is the stuff legends are made of (cue music). Current track design which shortens straights and eliminates men from the boys turns emasculates racing, IMO.
T6 is not really dangerous if you are in the right position. It only gets hairy if you're way off line. In the tintops I've driven there w/R compounds it's a slight throttle lift before turn in back to increasing throttle-full throttle through the turn. Passing is possible there, but only if the lead car makes a drastic mistake (overshoots turn in point or leaves the door open before turn entry). Otherwise, the door should be shut until T11. Yes... spectators love T6-10. Drivers like T2-6 especially after getting over the mystique of the Corkscrew. Many world class motorcycle racers hate Laguna- as in "most hated" track on the SBK schedule in the past. Yes, agreed. The corkscrew does define Laguna, rightly or wrongly. It is a visual feast. At Road America, the Carousel and the Kink are far more defining for me as a driver, and as a spectator T5 is where all the brake problems show up! The hill at Lime Rock... god I had to ride that thing 20 times in a bicycle race back in high school... Yes... but the corkscrew is more mickey mouse than skill in my opinion- T2 is far harder to negotiate at a higher pace- it requires far more subtle touch and patience as a driver. Current track design... Alan Wilson is an example of the kind of "modern" design thinking- decreasing radius turns at the end of short straights... no really long straights without chicane options... no real increasing radius turns... no truly off camber turns... patience, patience, patience... I've driven two of his designs so far and I'm not really that impressed- they are very safe... but not all that fun compared to many of the other tracks I've been to.
Gonzales died because the throttle stuck on. On a motorcycle, you come off turn 6 in 4th or 5th gear, well over 120 mph, all the way to the right. You start braking uphill, and its pretty steep at first. The grade levels off about 100 - 200 feet before the corner (an estimte), and your still very hard on the brakes. You release the brakes, pitch the bike hard into the left hander maintain netural throttle, then immedately throw it over the right. If you do it right, you just miss the dirt on the right hander, once past the apex of the right hander, full throttle. In the 70s you had to hold your breath, they were all smoking dope of there and you could (it was rumoured) get off on the fumes. Art
The corkscrew is a throw away corner. It is important to maximize the straight up the hill from six, holding a straight line and braking hard after the crest to an inside left approach. There is no need to change direction if you come up the hill on the correct line. A sharp flick right, then left, holding the car to the right as much as possible will maximize the acceleration down the hill, and give a better opportunity for a very late apex on nine. Actually the most subtle turn IMO is the approach to turn one, get this one right and you pick up an extra two hundred revs going into two.
GTR - "Current track design... Alan Wilson is an example of the kind of "modern" design thinking - [omitted] I've driven two of his designs so far and I'm not really that impressed- they are very safe... but not all that fun compared to many of the other tracks I've been to." I had Wilson's designs in mind - well put. Art - "Gonzales died because the throttle stuck on." Yes, that's why I was careful to refer to braking problems, not driver error. I did not intend to disparage Gonzalo in any way. Another racing heartbreak.
I've run Laguna a few times in the dry, and once in the rain, but I have one question: What oak tree? Everyone always mentions it, but I've never used it as a marker. Not to sound arrogant, but the corkscrew (at least for me) was one of the easiest corners to "learn" -- it's a really intuitive corner. Like others have said, the Rainey Curve directly after the corkscrew catches a lot of people out, b/c it's a decreasing radius that looks a lot more open (on entry) than it is (on exit). No matter how many laps I put in tho, I always feel like I blow T2 (the Andretti hairpin). I think there are as many lines through that corner as there are grains of sand-- you can, however, go really, really deep under braking -- which makes it a good place to try a pass. The rest of the track is, honestly, a series of straights connected by some very well engineered and unique turns -- it's a slow track in a low hp car b/c the straights allow you time to think about the next turn (you're not constantly turning), but each turn offers a new challenge -- however, I could see how in an open wheel car, or LMP car Laguna could become a handful. It's almost "easy" in a street car. Anyway, back to the CS: You come off T6 and you climb the hill, on exit you should float all the way out, brush the curbing on exit of T6. As you ascend the hill you'll want to float to the left, brush the burm at the little kink they call T7. Once you contact that burm, start moving to the right... this begins your approach to the CS. The track begins to plateu, and you'll see the braking zone by all the rubber that's been put down. I graze the candystriping on the right at the top of the plateu and turn in. As I turn in, I touch the very top of the curbing that lines the CS, the car gets light as I crest and as soon as the car compresses I'm back on the gas. The CS falls away to the right, underneath you, so if you apex it right, you'll have just enough track; if you apex too early, you'll be on the gator teeth on exit; and, if you apex too late, you'll be backwards as your rears will catch dirt, and spin you around. It's hard to tell you exactly how to take this corner without you having seen it. Just take it easy the 1st few laps. It really is an easy corner. Lastly, the video game Gran Turismo 3, while it approximates Laguna pretty well, it falls short in purveying the actual width of the track, and the general size of the turns-- they're all really big. So, while it can prep you for the general layout, it doesn't translate the proportions very well. PS: stay off the gator teeth, err, curbing @ Laguna-- it'll tear body panels right off. Here are some videos : video 1. video 2. Both weretaken by john wurth.
Yeah ! F355 Challenge International Edition has Laguna.. It represents Laguna elevation, off camber turns alot better than Gran Turismo3 Aspec. The dreamcast game console has the game but most of the driving wheels on dreamcast sucked... I go to the arcade and play it way too much.
I never aimed at the oak tree either. I prefer to focus on the track. It is an easy corner after you turn in. The braking zone can be really tricky, though, depending on the car you drive (and whether or not somebody is on your butt contemplating a pass). Keep in mind that you usually have to make at least two downshifts while braking, and the braking zone is short, and if you heel/toe, you are busy! Do you wait until you crest the hill and hope it sticks (it didn't stick for Zinardi!) or do you brake easy before the crest? Only your car can answer. You have to be ready for the car to get on "tip toes" as you crest the hill, and you have to be careful not to lock the brakes. In my last race there, I was driving a 220 hp Caterham 7 (with so-so brakes) and I briefly locked the brakes several times (Viper glued to my ass). It was a relatively fast car (1:43 lap times) but it was light, so I was braking after the hump. Very little margin for error, as I found out. Most production cars would need to squeeze the brakes a little earlier. To me, turn 3 is the hard one. Yes, it's the most boring turn on the track, but since the apex and exit are blind (cement wall) it makes it difficult for me to judge how fast to go in. Every time I go thru 3, I say to myself "I could have gotten thru there a little better". I would prefer to see the old track come back as well.
well.. in a friends stock S2k we brake just before the crest and exit the corkscrew in 3rd gear. I've seen people brake just after the crest but I think I'd rather drive home insted of shunting into the dirt.
There is a pretty neat video of Laguna Seca (and a bunch of other great tracks) here... http://www.jeepvideos.com/mpeg/ Someone told me that the trick to the corkscrew is to aim for the tree. He said when I got to the track and drove it I would understand. One of these days I will!
A stock 355F1 can brake after the crest if you are on the correct line, (not the popular line). If you miss all that happens is that you miss the left apex by as much as you missed the braking point. If on the other hand, if you panic and lock the brakes, you could get in trouble and end up over the right side berm. In the FB car, I lightly touch the brakes just before the crest, (its called a confidence lift) then brake hard when the car settles down on the plateau. As a point of reference, we do low 30s in the FB cars
Oh man. Low 1.30's... that's nutty! Breaking below a 1.40 in a fendered car is something special, but going aroung lapping under 30 would be incredible. I'd love to get into a ride that got me into the 30's. Another note on braking into CS: if you want, just lift before the crest, let the car settle on the plateu, and then do all your braking then.
Just a minute there, FB means a Formula B car, not a street car at all. I doubt a stock 355 could break into the 50's
One autocrosser from SoCal in an S2000 can do 1:46's (stock S, with corded Hoosier R comp's). A heavily modded S2000, with full slicks can pull a 1:42. But I believe John Dearing in a Viper GTS takes the cake with a 1:38 (r-compounds or slicks, cannot recall). So.. dipping in the 1:40's, it is possible in a full fendered street-going (eh.. sorta) car.
John won my race, Joel Quaid was second in a 360 Challenge, and I was 3rd in the Super 7. So John probably was doing 1:39s if I was doing 1:43s. I couldn't see those guys after 5 laps. John's Viper is awesome. I did manage to beat him last year at Buttonwillow in an endurance race, driving the Super 7. Of course, I had John Morton as a co-driver! (If you don't know who John is.....uh.....he won the Daytona 24 driving an Otto Zipper Daytona. He won LeMans, too. Me? I haven't won Sh**!)
