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Knock in the brake pedal while braking

Discussion in '348/355' started by alexpivo52, Nov 26, 2019.

  1. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Rookie

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  2. alexpivo52

    alexpivo52 Karting

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    Ian, noticed the highlighted for the 5.2 diagram is wrong: for Spider the mirror heating oval symbol is replacing the rectangular rear window heater symbol; it's not in the lower left corner; in the lower left corner F1 cars having the F1 gearbox warning light. If the factory was making the '98-99 5.2 Spiders with a stick or not - don't know.

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  3. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Rookie

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    Sorry, Alex, I don't have any instrument panel wiring diagrams for any of the F1 cars. My '98 diagrams are based on my gated non-USA spider. I started looking at the '97 USA paper diagrams which I recently acquired, but it's not clear what the diagram codes mean. I could create an entirely new set of diagrams for the F1 cars showing the lights in the right position, but I wouldn't know how the binnacle was wired up. I would only be guessing which pins are used on the connectors.

    I started adding notes to the Instrument panel diagram, but it started getting out of hand, so I just put a generic note "F1/USA lamp wiring may differ".

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    What happened to the USA style parking brake warning light? Is it now incorporated into the (!) warning light (as it is on the Euro cars)?
     
  4. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Rookie

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    The only diagram I could find for the F1 instrumentation is in the WSM Gearbox section. It is simplified. Only some connector pins are shown.

    F1 Wiring Schematic
     
  5. alexpivo52

    alexpivo52 Karting

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    Yes. As you correctly noted, it says: "BRAKE" instead of a symbol.
     

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  6. alexpivo52

    alexpivo52 Karting

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    #31 alexpivo52, Dec 29, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2019
    This diagram looks very good. I wish I had it first year of my car ownership, it had a serious TCU issue I was chasing for 1 year. The car was jerking when engaging gears. The problem was it was jerking not every time engaging every gear, but only sometimes, randomly. I was fixing it in a local dealership where nobody knew of why. AND, because the jerking was physically a hydraulic shocks to the actuator, it was leaking like dying, loosing lots of oil. So I had to rebuild it 3 TIMES. The dealership even had reached out to the North American Ferrari racing team. In my case it was the original TCU had died and I had bought a replacement TCU which was making the car jerking too (which was VERY upsetting at a time). The issue turned out instead of a factory procedure of COPYING the car's individual data from a current TCU to the new TCU, it needed the new TCU to be reset to the factory defaults along the TCU learning the car's specific data from the car.

    The P/N: 12100046 for the EV1 and EV2 is wrong. There is no such P/N in the Ferrari parts catalogue. As far as I know neither Ferrari nor Magneti Marelli sells the power unit solenoids for 355. So there is no p/n for EV3, 4, or 5 neither. As the pressure accumulator ball neither.
    The pressure accumulator ball from 360 P/N: 58552368 will fit to 355 with an adapter extender from Ricambi. The solenoids from 360 ARE sold separately but they have a different (rounded) connector than for 355 (rectangular).
     
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  7. alexpivo52

    alexpivo52 Karting

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    EVF P/N: 12100035 is not in the Ferrari parts catalog neither. Don't know of where these P/Ns came from?
     
  8. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Rookie

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    Are you saying these are serial numbers, rather than Marelli part numbers? These numbers were shown in photographs on the forum and elsewhere (on 355 solenoids). I thought they might help those who wanted to buy second hand solenoids (if they ever became available) or help if someone took their solenoids off the car and forgot where they went. I can't remember if I contacted Marelli, but I tried contacting the manufacturer of the power unit but got no response. Anyway, rumour has it that someone is planning to reproduce them.
     
  9. alexpivo52

    alexpivo52 Karting

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    I never said these are the serial numbers or whatsoever. I said these P/Ns don't exist in the Ferrari parts catalog and that neither Ferrari nor Magneti Marelli do not sell these solenoids for 355 separately. These numbers could be even not from Magneti Marelli. These solenoids are not made by Magneti Marellii but by its' supplier, a German company which makes these solenoids. I don't remember the name of that supplier. I didn't see that company selling these solenoids neither.
     
  10. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Rookie

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    I started modifying the instrument panel wiring to suit a USA F1 spider, but there are simply too many unknowns and in some cases conflicting data.

    e.g.
    How many pins are there on the F1 water temperature gauge? Before, there was one plug for two gauges, now there are two plugs.
    Does the front fog use the same binnacle wiring as the rear (Euro) fog light? How is it spliced into the foglight system?
    How is the SPORT light wiring spliced into the car? Is the signal still from the Bilstein system?
    Etc...

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    Does any 355 use the TIRE PRESS LOW light? I recall shining a light in the back of my instrument panel and it illuminated.
     
  11. alexpivo52

    alexpivo52 Karting

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    #36 alexpivo52, Dec 29, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2019
    How many pins are there on the F1 water temperature gauge? Before, there was one plug for two gauges, now there are two plugs. - 7. Appearing it should be the same gauge as for your stick. Your pins layout is correct. Make the second small bulb bigger and yellow. The water gauge has a little red warning light what goes out when the coolant temp goes up to the red (happened once to me right after I bought the car and it was a hot day and I had learned the LH radiator fan had broken prop off the shaft and the prev. owner ****** just took off the fuse. Such a Ferrari-owner. -So that little red bulb takes one of the pins on the connector I would guess. So the gauge has total of 3 bulbs: 2 for illumination 12V 2.2W and one - the red one for warnings.
    The second rectangular plug is for F1 Gear Display

    Does the front fog use the same binnacle wiring as the rear (Euro) fog light? How is it spliced into the foglight system? - The binnacle per say is the same as for the European fog lights. The fog light P/Ns are the same for all 355s. On both sides there are 3-way harnesses that plug in to the fog light and to the side parking light on each side of the front bumper, and the other end of the 3-way harness plugs in to the cables on each side which go into the car. The US 355 doesn't have rear fog lights. Front fog lights only. For some odd reasons BMWs for the US not having the rear fog lights neither, while having the wiring in place. Although Porsche-s and Mersedes-es do. Odd.
    How is the SPORT light wiring spliced into the car? Is the signal still from the Bilstein system? - Probably. Either from Bilstein or TCU because in sport mode the Bilstein harden the shocks and the TCU on shifting makes the clutch closing timing twice faster (1/20 of a sec. in the sport mode and 1/10 of a sec in the normal mode) and gears shifting RPMs higher. I don't see on your diagram any pin from the TCU going to the SPORT light, then it should be coming from Bilstein. Motronic is not in play for the SPORT mode.

    Does any 355 use the TIRE PRESS LOW light? I recall shining a light in the back of my instrument panel and it illuminated. - My 355 F1 is MY99 the last production year and it's not having a tire pressure monitoring. Sometime ago I had bought the tire valves my 355 was having the original plastic caps missing, so the valves are the only P/N 174166 which is not having the pressure sensor whatsoever.
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  12. alexpivo52

    alexpivo52 Karting

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    #37 alexpivo52, Dec 29, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2019
    I could say though in the late 90s around the time of when the 355s were produced, it was another technology to monitor the tire low pressure without the pressure sensors. For the E38 7-series BMWs it was an option to build the car with the tire low pressure monitoring based on the additional ECU that was integrated to the ABS wiring. What that ECU was doing is comparing tires PRMs from the ABS magnetic pulse sensors to each other. Once detected 1 tire rotating faster than the other 3 - due to a low air pressure on a deflated tire makes its' diameter smaller therefore it needs to spin faster, it was throwing the LOW TIRE PRESSURE light. That system was detecting 20% or more of the air pressure loss in a tire. While the system based on the tire pressure sensors detects 10% of the tire pressure loss, which ultimately had won the market.

    So my 355 neither is having a Tire Pressure ECU nor I seen such ECU P/N in the parts catalog, or a light for such in the instrument cluster :-/ - I think that system is amazing, better than nothing and easy to integrate, isn't it?
     

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  13. alexpivo52

    alexpivo52 Karting

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    Forgot to mention, where on your diagram is the LOW TIRE PRESSURE light, on F1 instrument cluster is actually the LOW OIL PRESSURE symbol (see on a screenshot earlier in this thread).
     
  14. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Rookie

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    The smaller bulb symbol is shown about the same size as it is in the wiring diagrams. I can make it yellow, but I need to distinguish it from the backlighting lamps.

    I'm not sure I understand. There are only two lampholders. The circuit board in your photograph shows separate input/output pins attached to the circuit board tracks going to the lamps, so the two lampholders have different functions.

    BTW, thanks for the photos of the instruments. This confirms that pins 1 and 5 are not used on F1 car plugs and there is still a 7 pin plug. On the downside, it doesn't leave me much room for drawing wires from the F1 gear display :p


    The Euro diagrams show no front fog, only a rear. The USA diagrams show only a front fog, no rear. That is shown in my coloured 2.7 and 5.2 lighting wiring diagrams. The USA cars have additional splices (not shown in the WSM or paper Euro diagrams) which enable the daytime flashers to be used as front fogs. I didn't realise that the picture you posted earlier was a Euro binnacle. I'll have to amend the foglight annunciator to point in the opposite direction and add "BRAKE".
    I don't have any late model diagrams showing how the lamp is hooked up to the front foglight system, but I have just incorporated the wiring shown on a '96 model diagram (non-F1) into my USA Lights diagram. But there are still more changes to be made to that one also (and any other diagrams I designate as "USA").

    Fig8_Lighting_Diagram_5.2(1997~)_USA

    The external wiring for the upper left warning lamp shown in a '95 WSM diagram makes no sense whatsoever and is hooked up to solenoid of the headlamp motor control relay in the front luggage compartment. It's also has a different coloured wire.

    More to come... still reading your notes :D
     
  15. alexpivo52

    alexpivo52 Karting

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    Good catch. The left bulb (looking at the rear of the gauge housing) it is for the red warning light). I guess leaving it small (and red then) will make more sense.

    That is correct, for the US version the front fog lights act as a daytime flashers. The Fig8_Lighting_Diagram_5.2(1997~)_USA seems applies to the F1 cars too as I can tell. It has a reference for example for the Reverse button on the tunnel (a console between the seats) that non F1 doesn't have. Interesting to see on it the LOW TIRES PRESSURE light and the misplaced external mirrors light for F1. Does/did the guy who drawn it have/had actually a 355?

    Interesting to learn the European cars not having the front fog lights but only the rear :-\ Obviously there are the fog lights on the front bumper on all of the 355s... What are these bumper rounded lights are used in EU for then?

    The pictures I posted are from the 355 F1 Owner's manual which is to my understanding by default is printed for the European cars. It has in the notes of what/where for the US version is different.
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  16. alexpivo52

    alexpivo52 Karting

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    I see now. It was a tire pressure monitor in 1994 2.7. Why did they take it out? -I understand for F1 there is no warning light space available as they moved the oil pressure gauge to the radio console to put in its' place the F1 gears display, but for non-F1 they just kept that space for the light blank..
    And, I see for non-Spiders non F1 there are both lights for the external mirrors heater and for the rear window for 5.2.
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  17. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Rookie

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    Just for daytime flashers. My Australian 5.2 gated car is the same as the Euro (albeit RHD).

    I don't believe so. Read the notes on the second page. The mirror heater symbol is only for spiders. The bezel/light is inactive or absent on GTBs and GTSs. On these cars, the heated rear window symbol represents both the window and the mirror heat. No wiring is shown going to the mirror heat symbol (external to the binnacle) in any of the GTB/GTS diagrams (paper or pdf).

    Are you talking about my diagrams or ones you found? All the 5.2 diagrams were drawn by me. The FChat community had no access to 5.2 wiring diagrams, until I drew them. As I had no USA, 5.2 or F1 Ferrari diagrams, all of my 5.2 diagrams were modified Euro 2.7 diagrams. The modifications were based on extensive wiring checks on my own car (which is Euro-based, albeit RHD with an exhaust bypass thermocouple ECU).
    I have a LOW TIRE PRESS warning light bezel on my 5.2 spider and the wiring inside the binnacle is included. If I remember correctly, there was even some external wiring for this system. As I have said many times on FChat, there are suprisingly few differences in the wiring between the 2.7 and the 5.2 cars, so my diagrams had very few errors (Ferrari developed the 5.2 car with as few changes as possible). Only in the last few months did I add a USA "lighting" diagram based on some paper diagrams I bought recently, but since the diagrams don't identify the binnacle warning lights, the USA cars will require some extensive studies and I have made no changes inside the binnacle yet. As I said before, I just added a simple note on one or two of the diagrams saying USA cars and F1 cars may be different.

    Hope this makes sense.
     
  18. alexpivo52

    alexpivo52 Karting

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    Based on few errors on the diagrams for F1 and you said you obtained them, I was under the impression you got them from someone else. Thanks for clarifying. No worries.

    Do you have pressure sensors in the wheels?
     
  19. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Rookie

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    No.

    I don't know if the TPMS has an ECU, but I don't have one of those, either.

    A few months ago, I acquired the USA paper diagrams, but they only go as far as '97 and they do not include any F1 stuff. However, F1 system diagrams are, in a form, found in the pdf WSM (in the Gearbox section), but they don't show all the binnacle warning light wiring. Suprisingly, I missed this diagram in the WSM :eek:

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  20. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Rookie

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    Here's my second attempt. Unfortunately, it's starting to look a little cluttered, making it harder to read.

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    I've increased the size of the water temp warning light to highlight the colour.

    A few questions remain:
    Are there any binnacle internal wiring changes regarding the warning lights or are they all hooked up to the same binnacle connector pins found on the Euro, non-F1, non-spider cars? NB: Sometimes the activating signal for a light is a ground/earth, sometimes a voltage, sometimes two voltages, so pin and wiring changes may be required.
    Where is the F1 gauge backlight wiring spliced into the dimmer rheostat circuit?

    I haven't checked wire colours within the wiring binnacle. My colours are roughly based on the wires going to the binnacle. Some amendments may be required in this respect.

    Unfortunately, there may not be enough room on some of my diagrams to simply cut and paste the diagram above into existing diagrams to create unique set of USA F1 Spider diagrams. Also, some of the binnacle diagrams are not only rotated, but mirrored, requiring a lot of graphics editing.
     
  21. alexpivo52

    alexpivo52 Karting

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    #46 alexpivo52, Jan 1, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2020
    Hey Ian, the diagram looks great. Few details:

    Fog light color: amber
    Parking Lights: amber
    BRAKE: red, not amber
    Air Bag: red
    Check Engine: amber
    Mirror Heater: amber
    Seatbelt: red
    ABS: red
    Slow Down: red

    Are there any binnacle internal wiring changes regarding the warning lights or are they all hooked up to the same binnacle connector pins found on the Euro, non-F1, non-spider cars? - Can't say definitively at this point but to my understanding they should be the same. Correction on my earlier statement: 3-way harness connects on one side to the front parking light/turn signal and the fog light/flasher, not to the fog light/flasher and to the side parking light. NB: Sometimes the activating signal for a light is a ground/earth, sometimes a voltage, sometimes two voltages, so pin and wiring changes may be required.
    Where is the F1 gauge backlight wiring spliced into the dimmer rheostat circuit? - F1 display when dimmed, the brightness is not adjustable unlike the rest of the instrument cluster. It doesn't have a back-light. The segments light-up in full when parking lights are off and dimmed in-half with parking lights on. Appearing it is not connected to the rheostat.

    I haven't checked wire colours within the wiring binnacle. My colours are roughly based on the wires going to the binnacle. Some amendments may be required in this respect. - Can't help with this at the moment. I was doing a cracks filling/paint job on the front bumper last Summer and had all the lights and cabling disassembled, if next time I would need to open the under-bumper carriage up for anything else, I'll provide the details. You can add to your diagrams though important detail is the parking light bulb socket and a corresponded connector on the 3-way harness are BLACK, and for the front turn signals - GRAY. It is also printed out on the back of the front light fixtures. When I had bought the car, I learned a stupid mechanic who was doing something with the lights before my ownership, misplaced all the bulb sockets had put them to the light fixture all the way around wrongly.

    Unfortunately, there may not be enough room on some of my diagrams to simply cut and paste the diagram above into existing diagrams to create unique set of USA F1 Spider diagrams. Also, some of the binnacle diagrams are not only rotated, but mirrored, requiring a lot of graphics editing. - Even as it is, your diagrams are HUGE help. No worries.

    Just an interesting observation: While most of the parts supplied to Ferrari are from Italian Magnetti Marelli or from German Bosch, the round buttons for hazard, opening up the fuel tank lid, and the interior light are from Ford made in USA, and the front turn signals from Peugeot made in France.

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  22. Qavion

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    Thanks, Alex!

    I've changed most of the colours of the bezels, but some are a little hard to read in red.

    Interesting. Oddly, pin 9 in the WSM F1 digital display diagram is labelled "Light rheostat input", so I'm not sure what to do about that. Normally, the backlighting is provided on yellow-red wires, so I may have to change the wire colours on pin 9 if it is attached to something other than the dimmer circuit. Perhaps it is a red/yellow wire and the display simply reacts to the presence of any voltage on the wire (to dim the display).

    I can't really colour the plugs black as the black wiring in the plug disappears. I'll try to use various shades of grey. e.g. Dark grey = black. I've previously done this with the headlight plugs. Also, white wires have to be made light grey, otherwise they would be completely invisible on a white background.

    I've squeezed the F1 display 12 pin connector into the diagram, but you'll probably have to magnify the picture on an iPad or in Windows Paint to see any detail.

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  23. alexpivo52

    alexpivo52 Karting

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    - I double-checked yesterday: the F1 display does do changing the brightness along with the instrument cluster gauges illumination by twisting the rheostat when parking lights are on.
     
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  24. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Rookie

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    Thanks, Alex. So there is a brightness change, but only with the lights on. Interesting.
     
  25. alexpivo52

    alexpivo52 Karting

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    Correct. The F1 display brightness is adjustable only when the parking lights and/or headlights are on. With parking lights off the F1 display brightness is a 100% regardless of the rheostat position.
     
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