Just did 308 belts with great cam locking tool

here's a cheap alternative they Fiat Guys came up with:




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Nice work.

 

would simply like to swap out belts this spring myself and would feel much more confident if I had something to freeze the cams inplace...don't need anything strong enough to hold while I remove the cam drives since I won't be doing that, just need to immobilize them for fresh belts

 

I don't see why the same setup wouldn't work for a QV. After all, you're still just holding two pullies in place.

 

MMMmmmmmmmmm, not sure about the metal bar on the Fiat twin cam head,wouldnt want to risk burring the teeth on the pulley for fear of it shredding the new belt,much prefer the nylon idea in fact I want one,where do I purchase on of these?

Gareth

 

I want one too...

Is AWulff selling them---reasonably?

77 308

Greg

 

that's why I put a smiley on the post.

Maybe using a 6061 or 7075 al wouldn't mar up the gear teeth.

BUT... on some twin cams the gears are made of plastic, to no metal would be appropriate.

The clamp shouldn't be used to loosen the cam pulley bolts but only hold them in place for belt replacement. In that case, they realy don't have to be tight enough to do any damage.

JD

QUOTE=maseratighibli]MMMmmmmmmmmm, not sure about the metal bar on the Fiat twin cam head,wouldnt want to risk burring the teeth on the pulley for fear of it shredding the new belt,much prefer the nylon idea in fact I want one,where do I purchase on of these?

Gareth[/QUOTE]

 

That looks ok for those with metal cam pulleys, but if I had the plastic pulleys I would rather use a lock that holds on to the nice hard metal camshafts, like Verell's lock does.

 

I'd personally toss the plastic pullies in the bin ( asmany a Fiat owner has done).
Then I'd use a proper factory tool to hold the pullies very securely to tighten up the bolts on the fresh metal ones.

I'd only use the "quicky" device on metal and only for a belt change, I'd fab out of Aluminum stock and wouldn't use any more clamping force than needed. Tools only intended for alignment. That way "IF" any deformation occured it would be on the tool not the teesth of the pullies.

btw... pics of the tool are not mine, but one posted on one of the Fiat forums. Mnes out of aluminum. For a once in 5 year job that only takes 20 minutes on my Lancia, this is all that's needed.

JD

 

The 308/328 tech specs doc lists all the relevant factory tools & there isn't one listed there. None of the 308 & 328 WSMs reference one. In the 6 years I've beeon on Fchat & Flist, no one has ever come up with one.

So,Do you know of a 'proper' factory cam lock tool for the 3x8, or are you just talking thru your hat?

BTW,
it's about $800 to replace those plastic cam gears with metal ones, when you can find them.

 

Verell....
I was referencing FIAT pullies...

here's my "hat" of tricks....

here's some pics of the FIAT factory tool (next to pics from Guy Crofts Twin Cam book), one of the factory tool on a cam gear, a pic of my "farm-boy" quickie pulley aligner, and one of a purchased from Baum Tools.

The factory tool is mostly used when building a head, but can be used in situ to remove the pulley bolt, providing it's properly blocked from rotation.

JD

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That multilock tool is great but cant find link to buy it......

 

here:

http://tools.batauto.com/index.php?crn=72&rn=1534&action=show_detail

here:

http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=7292

and here:

http://207.97.196.162/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1673

 

Think this would work?


http://207.97.196.162/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=3195

 

this..... is a very , very cool thread.

 

Forgot about this Lancia Factory tool. Part number is also shown. Made to use in situ. Direct from my Lancia Beta Factory shop manual.

Alas, there may be some around, but haven't come across one yet.

JD
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Umm,
You were telling 4weber's to scrap his plastic 308 cam gears & use a factory tool, I don't see how that could be construed as being about FIAT pulleys

That Lancia tool is along the lines that I'm developing for the QV.

What's interesting about the Lancia tool is that the drawing cut-away shows it engaging the cam gear teeth, forcing a single timing relationship between the cam gears. I thought about & decided forcing timing wouldn't work on the 3x8s given the variable relationship between the cams & cam gears. Solving that problem is what's been holding up my 4V cam lock.

 

Verell,

I'm not sure forcing a single timing relationship between the cam gears is really a problem. The idea as I understand it, is to just preserve the timing relationship during the belt change. There is no requirement that the engine be held at TDC for instance, although this is may be desireable is some instances. If one turns the engine over just enough to align the teeth properly, and ideed the tool will force this alignment when tightend up, that's all that really needs to happen. The timing is preserved. This should also work when adjusting the cam timing except that the cam being adjusted will have to rotate slightly, which is what you are trying to accomplish anyway. In any event, the tool would force the sprocket to sprocket relationship required to fit the belt.

 

Does anyone know "roughly" the diameter of the cam pullies?? 4" or so?

 

I am. Been there. I agree that in theory what you suggest would work, & I could probably make it work. BUT, I'm not an inexperienced do it yourselfer trying to do this job the 1st time. Also, I'd still be very concerned that I could be having an 'off' day & mess up big time as I'll describe below.

Here's the problem:
The 3x8 belts are so short that you can't stretch the long belt section between the cam drive gear & the rearmost cam gear tight enough by hand to slip the belt onto the gear.

You usually end up having to back the engine off a couple of degrees to take the slack out of the tensioner side of the belt & allow the belt to go on, (the alternative is to shift both cams a bit, but a cam lock precludes doing that.)

If you've already moved the engine to get the cam gears to mesh with the lock, then you've moved it fare away from the TDC that you can't see the mark. Worst case, you'll have to rotate the engine enough to move the cam gears a half tooth, which is a lot in an interference engine.

Then if you move the engine to slip the belt on, & accidently get the belt on the wrong tooth on the cam drive gear, you can't detect this by double checking the TDC mark. That's enough miss-timing for a piston to tap a valve when you go to rotate the engine back to TDC to verify that your marks line up.

Changing the belts with the cams locked deadon is challenging enough for a relatively inexperienced do it yourselfer. I'm not about to sell or recommend a tool that requires pro level care & skill to avoid a very expensive mistake.

 

I will be doing this for the first time and while I am confident and handy and have done much work on my jags..still there are serious consequences to rookie mistakes...just not worth it. So my plan is to just do a belt change with cams locked so I can get familiar with the set-up (this forum and you and the others with pics and tools etc. helps) then the next go 'round check the timing and sync the cams etc. --car runs fine as is and is not tracked. For me it is not really the cost..it is the fun of the hobby and connected with the mechanical side of the car that adds much depth and appreciation to the enjoyment of the car...also keeps me VERY humble and helps me swallow those big mechanic bills since I get a taste for what is involved in this work. A QV cam lock would be great, not sure there is enough room in there for the Baum tool but if so do you think it might work/

 

Hmm, exactly when are you planning on starting? I might be able to either loan you one of the prototypes i used for the JWise service, or possibly would have a 2nd generation design available.

As to the multilock tools, i remember seeing something in one of the other cam gear threads saying they were only usable with curvilinear tooth gears. Also, you're right, they do look pretty big for a QV's small cam gears & tight cam-cam spacing.

 

Verell,

I will be doing my belts in the next 2-3 weeks. I'd be willing to try your prototype if ready. Otherwise I was going to make the locks out of teflon.

Thanks,
Carmine