There are a couple of mission points here. When you get in trouble under power in a Vtwin, the torque curve is such that as the rear tire starts to spin, you end up with progressively less TQ as it progressively spins up. This means its easier to catch the spin and ride big black arc through the rest of the turn on a Vtwin than on a big 4. Some of this has to do with the powerbanding, and some of it with the cylinder counts. An I4 turning at 12,000 RPMs is producing 100 power impulses per second, while a Vtwin at 8,000 is only producing 33 power impulses per second. The lower cadence of the Vtwin enables the rear tire to slide forwad under impulse and then regain traction with the road during the no impulse interval. The I4 does not hae a now power interal. Both taken together gives a novice-to-pretty good rider the feel of control and safety on a Vtwin than on an I4 under the same operating conditions. However, the powerbands are different also. The Vtwin is powerbanded to accelerate out of turns, while the I4 is powerbanded to enable that big top end rush. More races are won by acceleration out of corners than on the absolute top speed capability of the bikes.
They have no room in this discussion Its like talking about Lamborghini vs Ferrari, and you throw in a S2000 in the mix
good point...i have raced both ducs and suzukis and they were both seriously fast but the suzukis ultimatly won out because they were cheap to race comparative to my 888/955. and if i threw it down the road on a race weekend, it was not as tragic as it would be w/ the duc. lastly, the fasted lap time i ever cut at road atlanta was not on my 750 superbike or 1000 cc formula extreme bike... but on a r6!horsepower is not always an asset!! it can be a bit scary!! last comment: it is still hard for me to believe that any 16 yr old kid can go down to the suzuki dealer and buy a gsxr1000. a stock bike w/ slicks and some suspension can win races at the local level out of the box...it's indy car w/ two wheels. seems to me there should be more involved to buying such a missle!
But dont they cost like an arm and a leg in cycle terms as well? (and have some of the best brakes as told to me by a harley driver...go figure)
Money isn't everything mate. Bentleys cost just as much as Lambos and F cars, but you don't see them talked about here. Realistically Omar, BMW bikes are made for different purpose and they excel in those. This thread is more about knee dragging and burning up the rubber in the twisties. I am sure many here like bmw bikes, I am just not one of them. They are stylistically challenged, shall we say.
Mitch, I am just trying to follow here but why is the V-Twin not doing 38 power impulses per second in this case? I am just trying to figure out the math. Thanks.
What I dislike the most about Ducati is: people saying they have mystique & heritage = they lack of reliability & high tech , they are just a V-twin bikes that sucks! just imagine if a Maranello had a V6 or a Modena L-4 .it's the same thing, on the other hand they are expensive to buy and maintain: in my opinion a bike should be : something to have fun with, Not something to take care of, and be worried about, the only good thing about Ducati is they enjoy being Italian as Italy has a reputation of creating legendary beautiful machines, but that doesn't make them good desirable motorcycles to me. don't take it personal it's just an opinion.
Hey Urraco, you already made this brilliant post VERBATIM yesterday. You could have at least proofread it this time...you did have a whole day. Did you read my thorough response? If no, click here to see the post you made last night and the reply I gave you. http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=250071#post250071 If yes, your learning curve is flatter than your grammatical style, and there's nothing this board can do to help you. But it really is a good explanation, and you're just not responding like you should be. Ex "Thanks Charlie, that summed it up pretty well..."
You probably ought to stick with your 900RR and keep it under 6k. Did you happen to know that Ferrari produced several 4-cyl & 6-cyl racecars, and even <gasp> a 6-cyl road car? At one point I read they even built a v-twin engine for testing but it was never raced. When it is about racing within the rules, you build what works, not always what has the most pistons. As far as high-tech, my 1990 851 has fuel injection (no Jap bikes had it at that time), with a setup very similar to the F40. The Desmo valve gear allows for higher rpm (not that it would apply to you) operation w/o valve float and allows more aggressive cam profiles for valve lift. Did you know that they have tested the V-twins to 15,000 rpm and regualrly use over 13000 while racing? Try that with your Blade. I'm not trying to convince you to buy one, maybe someday you'll understand.
I ride a Harley Fatboy that has even less power that the Italian bikes, yet it never fails to bring a smile to my face ever time I look at or ride it. The Harley has the sound and the classic look that no other bike has, PERIOD. I grew up riding Jap bikes in the 1970s including a Kawasaki 750H1, a Kawasaki 900Z1, a Suzuki TM250 and a Suzuki GS1100. While they were all fast and fun to ride, they pale in comparison to a Hog! Now that I'm 47 years old, speed on a bike is not nearly important as the experience I get from a nice cruise.
about my grammatical "style"... I dare you to post even one sentence in a second language for you............ and about Ducati: Today I picked up an european motorcycle magazine and they did a comparision between CBR600RR and Ducati 749S Testastretta...guess which one took their first place? Of course the MOTO GP RC211V descendant was a clear winner.
How many extra miles at how much travel time would you be willing to accept for having a Ducati (purchase, maintenance, & whatever)? The closest (and not necessarily the best) is 75 miles and 90 minutes away for me.
Martin, I did not say anything about your grammar or English, someone else pointed it out. But to refute your above statement, English is my third language, and though I am no expert, if you search my posts, I can write a few decent sentences in English. Thus just because something is your second language, does not mean you cannot write coherent sentences (not meaning you personally, but more in a general term). All that said, this is not a classroom, and I am certainly not a grammer teacher. Lets talk bikes.
Ok, that was uncalled for and I apologize. Back to bikes, your statement "people saying they have mystique & heritage = they lack of reliability & high tech , they are just a V-twin bikes that sucks!" Ahhh, being exam week, it sent me over the top. Especially since your profile shows that your desired cars are "anything italian", yet you're slamming Ducati...?
Woops the whole math is wrong--although the conclusion remains:: I4 at 12,000:: 12,000/60 = 200 RPS; 200 RPS*2 power pulses per round = 400 pulses per second = 2.5 miliseconds V2 at 8,000:: 8,000/60 = 133 RPS; 133 RPS*1 power pulse per round = 133 pulses per second = 6.6 miliseconds The ratio is still 3:1, giving the V2 rear tire more time between pulses to hook up. Sorry for the bad arithmetic--must have done it in my head while drunk.
Most motorcycles have more power than most riders can use (except on I10 west of Segovia), almost no cars have more power than the drivers can utilize. This means that an extra 10% in power may not be as useful to the bike as it is to the car. In addition, since most bikes are 'wheelie' limited in 0-60 and 1/4 mile times more power simply makes throttle manipulation that much harder. Take my stock 900 SS (72 HP), you can make all sort throttle mistakes and the bkie simply accepts them and hunkers down. Now take my Fast-by-Ferrachi 900 SS (85 HP) and throttle bafoonery is simply not tollerated, the bike will spit you off (like right now). Both bikes weigh in around 380 pounds, both bikes will wheelie with simply judicious application of throttle. Once the front wheel is off the ground, acceleration is limited not by power, but by the rational that you don't want the bike to rotate around and lay you down backwards. The Japaneese bikes are at 2X the HP and at the same weight. You must have extreme respect for these bikes and good riding habits to survive.
Well, I guess this will be my first post. I just sold my 2002 GSX-R600, and will be picking up my 2004 GSX-R1000 next week. I have ridden a few Ducatis and one of my best riding buddies has a 2003 Aprilia RSV1000R. Since I have ridden the Aprilia more, I'll give my advice on it. Compared to other v-twins I've ridden (Ducati and TL1000R), it is by far the best. Is it down on power compared to other liter bikes? Yes. Every one of the new Japanese liter bikes have 15-20 more hp then the Italian liter bikes. However, if you know how to actually ride the Italian bikes, you could easily keep up with any Jap bike on the market. That's what these bikes are made to do. Go fast and feel comfortable on the track. Jap bikes, to me, are all about power and then it's track performance is second. That's just my opinion. One day I'll own an expensive, sexy bike, maybe a MV Agusta. But for now, I have one semester of college left and am more then happy with my Gix 1K and my Vette.
Someone said "who wants to buy an "underpowered" bike". The fact is, and this is also valid for race cars, that you should prefere an underpowered bike/car since you could also say it got "more chassis" and roadholding than engine power. And thats a good thing. This year, the MotoGP teams have reduced the power output compared to last year to gain driveability and the Formula 1 cars are actually underpowered via traction control. With this in mind you should not be surprised if an underpowered Italian bike actually is faster than an overpowered jap bike, which are proved in track tests. Ciao Peter (on an Aprilia RSV Mille R -00)
Please explain this to me. So if the Italian bikes are so good, then how come the Jap bikes own MotoGP? Best riders on best bikes = Japanese dominance in MotoGP. So, just how are the Italian bikes best?
First, you can't compare race bikes and road bikes. Regarding road bikes the japanese 160-170 hp inline4-bikes have a hell trying to keep up with the 130 hp italian twins. Probably due to the fact that v-engines give a much better drivability and that the chassis often are better. The world famous R1 wont keep the pace of an RSV Factory on track. In MotoGP most of the bikes have some sort of V-configuration and its advantages are investigated in last issue of Performance bikes. Ciao Peter
Actually it is not the Japanese bikes that own MotoGP, Honda has owned MotoGP. Yamaha will do better this year, but that is primarily because they now employ one of the best riders ever. Last year Ducati was clearly the #2 machine behind Honda in their first year in GP racing in something like 40 years. Ironically, last year the Ducati V-4 was considered to have at least as much power as the Honda V-5. MotoGP are pure prototypes not unlike F1 cars. What Ducati did last year would be analogous to BAR or Jaguar getting pole in their first race ever in F1. Ducati is struggling this year with handling issues, but is still ahead of the rest of the pack. Suzuki, Kawasaki, Aprilia, Proton, & WCM seem happy just to get points each weekend. As far as having a power deficit in their streetbikes is concerned, Ducati will address that issue in the next few days with the street version of the Desmosedici. Image Unavailable, Please Login
