japanese vs Italian bikes... | FerrariChat

japanese vs Italian bikes...

Discussion in 'Motorcycles & Boats' started by bostonmini, Apr 22, 2004.

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  1. bostonmini

    bostonmini Formula 3

    Nov 8, 2003
    1,890
    Many seem to love ducatis, and I believe they are some of the classiest sport bikes available...but from the extremely little that I know/have seen, they are WAY down on power compared to the kawasaki/honda/yamaha offerings....what gives? anybody know how they are remaining competitive? especially in a straight line, I see 130ish hp for a ducati, while the top kawasaki has something like 185 HP! ..answers?
     
  2. LAfun2

    LAfun2 Three Time F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    39,248
    California
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    Ryan
    I really want to write a 4 page response to your question, but I will refrain. Please read some of the multiple page threads that have been covered, as they mostly explain it.

    Aside from that, here is a short answer. Lets start with breaking the myths. It is not true Ducatis are slow. In essence ALL bikes are fast. Most bikes are too fast for most riders. Heck in reality all we need is Honda 125cc bikes, and we would really fill all our needs. Do a power to weight ratio. 180Hp on the Japanese bikes (usually about 140-155 at the wheels), and a weight of 376 pounds. Yes that is extremely fast. However a ducati is a bit down on power, and weight a little more. Don't kid yourself most riders can't ride any of these machines to their capabilities. I am not bagging on riders, just stating some generalities. Also Ducati superbikes are twins, whereas the Japanese are running inline 4s to make more power. Nonetheless, don't let the numbers fool you. Where bikes are ridden (remember bikes are not really drag raced, but they are ridden on tracks where suspension set up and handling is more important than pure HP numbers). Real bikers know this, but magazine sales aren't to real bikers. Magazines make money by selling to the ignorant and the squids that want to read about 9 second 1/4 mile and 180HP bikes and 220 mph speed limiters. In reality, most of that stuff doesn't matter.

    I know you have a mini. Well so do I. It only has 163 hp, however go to a autoX and you see mini's doing better than cars 2-3 times the price with 2-3 times the power. So whats up with all these slow minis ;) See now the argument makes sense eh? So how are these minis remaining competitive against 400 hp z06s and f355s? Because minis shine when it comes to suspension. HP numbers aren't everything.

    Lastly, why would someone buy a "underpowered" "overpriced" Ducati versus Japanese bikes? Well very easy. Why don't we all drive 15K honda civics with a H22 motor running a t3/t4 hybrid turbo pushing 28 lbs of boost? That could be done cheaper than a new honda accord and would run 9 second 1/4 miles all day. Hey who needs a Ferrari/Viper/Lambo? My honda is faster than your ____ (insert brand here). Thus to answer your question, the sound of a ducati, the heritage of the brand means more than all out HP numbers. Half the Ferraris on the board can be eaten alive by Corvettes and Subaru Sti's, but we are not all out buying such cars are we? Why do we love the "slow" Ferraris that are "down" on HP to the Vipers/Lambos? Because to some people (like me) Ferrari is an art. THe company has heritage. The sound is intoxicating. To some that is important.

    I don't race my friends stop light to stoplight on my bike (there are people I am sure who do), thus HP and straight line doesn't matter to me. Are the Ducati 749/999 slow compared to the gixxer 1K, r1, 1000rr, the busa? Sure maybe in a straight line, but with a good rider a ducati can hang all day. I buy bikes to enjoy the open air, to enjoy hitting the apex on the moutain roads. I love going out on a 70 degree clear day, where it is just me and the bike and the open road. It is almost better than sex. Do I care if I am on my gixxer with 140Hp or on a "slow" ducati with 110 Hp? Heck no. If you have to ask, you just don't understand.

    -sorry that is as succint as I could get with my response.
     
  3. fivebob

    fivebob Formula Junior

    Jan 31, 2004
    254
    Tauranga,New Zealand
    Full Name:
    Callum
    HP ain't all it's cracked up to be, rideability is more important. Just check out how far up the top 250cc GP riders would be on the MotoGP grid if you don't believe me, if it's wet qualifying some of them might even make it to the front row :eek:
     
  4. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    They aren't actually!. Compare LAP times and you will find that the 999 and GSXR1k are actually very competitive. Infact one mag found the 999 faster around their test track. HP does not equate to lap times ... and in the end lap times are what count for those that really care about performance.

    Drag racing is for those more than a couple of cans short of a 6 pack ;)

    Pete
     
  5. RyanZX6R

    RyanZX6R Formula Junior

    Nov 4, 2003
    254
    Riverside County
    Full Name:
    Ryan
    Well said, LAfun. What Italian bikes lack in hp, they more than make up in exclusivity, design, and soul. There is just something about an italian bike, whether it's a Ducati, an Aprilia, or an MV Augusta. It's the same type of attraction that people have with Ferraris. Yes there are faster cars, cheaper cars, more economical cars, but that's not why someone buys a Ferrari.

    I have a 2000 ZX6R and I will probably never reach the limits of it's potential. It's comfortable, fairly economical, and is plenty fast. Someday I will probably replace it, and an Italian bike would be sweet, if I could afford the price tag. Like the others have stated, power isn't everything.
     
  6. UroTrash

    UroTrash Three Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Jan 20, 2004
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    LA, thanks for saying that, you saved me a lot of writing.

    Bottom line is this: cranked over on the peg in a fast tight curve with unexpected rippled pavement 916= road magnet, Japanese bike= pucker time or worse (in my personal experience).

    Thr 916 had the best front end of any bike I have ever ridden (and it's out-dated now!) including many Japanese bikes and an MV F4S. It is totallty confidence inspiring, and confidence is what gets your out of dodgy situations.
     
  7. sjb509

    sjb509 Guest

    The 916 style may be 11 years old, but it still won last weekend in World Superbike with Chili riding against the 999's and japs.

    I've owned Japanese motorcycles, Italian motorcycles, and now also English motorcycles. For me it comes down to being able to look out in the garage in 10 years and think about how lucky I am to own this rare, beautiful motorcycle. European bikes are for keeping in the long term for me. Many of them are collectable in their own way. Few Jap bikes are, IMO, most are disposable in two years when the next model comes out.

    There are a few though that would be "buy and hold" as I like to do. Someday I hope I get the chance to try them out in my garage:
    Honda RC30, NR750, RC45, '93 CBR900RR
    Kawasaki ZX-7R (homologation special, 200 each year in '91, '92, '94)
    Yamaha OW-01, OW-02, GTS1000

    Some may disagree with the list, there are probably others I didn't think of right away.

    I get comments all the time on my 14 year old Ducati, and no one asks why I haven't traded it yet. If I had a '90 GSXR750, people would wonder why I hadn't upgraded yet (myself included).
     
  8. chaa

    chaa F1 Veteran

    Mar 21, 2003
    5,058
    Apart from my Italians, i think i will always keep my Busa, i dont know what its like in the rest of the world but in the UK the unrestricted busa ( before 2000) is very sortafter, and owners dont want to part with them so prices are strong.I personaly have a busa adiction.
     
  9. PCH

    PCH F1 Rookie

    Apr 7, 2004
    3,007
    If your buying strickly on HP Ducati will not come in first. Just like owning a Ferrari its more about the experience and soul of the machine. Although the rice burners may have more HP don't forget the Ducati is a twin and their low-mid range torque will just about beat anything off the line. Regarless of your choice you will probably never be able to fully utilize the power of any.
     
  10. UroTrash

    UroTrash Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 20, 2004
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    I met Frankie Chili at Laguna Seca a few years ago. He is by far the nicest and most approachable of all the riders. Thats simply amazing considering his vast experience not to mention his movie star looks.

    It did my heart good to see the "old" man win on an "outdated" bike! I'm glad he's back with Ducati, the Suzuki thing never seemed right...
     
  11. sherpa23

    sherpa23 F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    May 28, 2003
    9,992
    Rocky Mountains
    Full Name:
    Bastuna
    I have ridden some very high powered Japanese bikes but they have nothing on Ducatis when it comes to usability on the track or back road. Not that Ducati blows away the 180hp Japanese bikes but really they are very equal when lap times come into factor. Ducati race bikes and rece derived bikes (the 916-998) are very tractable for an experienced rider. The japanese 4's are not.

    In fact, several of the top racers in the world have said on different occasions that there are very few pro racers that can adequately handle a 1000cc i4, including themselves. It's easy to ride, but not easy to ride at more than 70%. I don't know about you, but I go okay on the track, drag my knees and the whole bit, and I know for sure that I can't get more than 60% out of 1000cc i4, and that's on my very best day.

    In the end, the charisma and charm of the Ducati speaks so loud that it even overshadows the whole hp thing, even though when lap times come into play, there's not much difference.
     
  12. bostonmini

    bostonmini Formula 3

    Nov 8, 2003
    1,890
    sorry guys, dont mean to be immature etc, I realize now that the ducati may be the better bike for driveability, but Im just curious, when you mention how much easier it is to drive, does that mean that even when playing around with a car that thinks its as fast as a bike, you are that much more comfortable pushing it hard in a fun rollover? if so, then why does anyone get japanese bikes? sounds like for a beginner (as i certainly would be! have only used dirt bikes!) the duc is the way to go then. just a thought. Still, for me, its suprising that ducati lets the power deficit become so great, imagine if in cars, some manufacturers (ferrari for example) refused to launch a gallardo counter car with more power...some would like it, but it makes sense to up the power and useable torque...and apparently they agree in maranello!
     
  13. LAfun2

    LAfun2 Three Time F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Hey Pete..I said they are slower in a straight line ;) I also said on the track given ther rider, Duc's can hang all day ;) Remember Pete, I am on yourteam. ;)
     
  14. LAfun2

    LAfun2 Three Time F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    39,248
    California
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    Simple. Most 16-18 year olds who buy bikes can't afford a 18K pricetag for a Ducati when a 7K gixxer will do. THink about it, how many 16 year olds drive Ferraris?

    Japanese bikes are economical, and most importantly cheaper to buy and cheaper to maintain.. Also older riders can't justify paying almost 20K for a bike, thus they spend 9K and get a yami or whatever.
     
  15. mad-dot

    mad-dot Karting

    Feb 24, 2004
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    #15 mad-dot, Apr 23, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  16. sjb509

    sjb509 Guest

    chaa,
    forgot about the hayabusa. '99 without the speed limiters, just to say you have the fastest production bike ever made would probably be on the list as well.

    About Ducati vs. Jap:
    LAfun2 is right, for older guys marital approval may come into play about how much they can spend. My wife hates my Triumph, but I using that as leverage to get a used 996 or MV in the next year or so.

    If horsepower was all that was important, everyone would buy a ZX-10 this year over R1, CBR, & GSXR, which of course will not happen. Ducatis will proably always have a horsepower deficit, but having enough power to get the job done is what is important, most of the time that is much less than 100hp. An owner of a ZX-10 probably doesn't use full throttle more than 1% of the time, anyway. A 999 still turns the 1/4 mile faster than any car on the street, so don't be worried about being embarrased by some kid in a pimped out Supra at the stoplight.

    I just keep waiting for the V-4 Ducati race engine to be put into a production bike (it will happen eventually). That will be fun.
     
  17. UroTrash

    UroTrash Three Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Jan 20, 2004
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    All I ride now are Japanese bikes. They are fun and cheap and don't break and almost maintainance free. Not a lot of commitment needed. I'm really too busy at present to have a tempermental machine,(except for the 330 GTC THAT I'M STILL LOOKING FOR!!!!!!!!). Actually, Ducatis are not very tempermental, but they do need looking after.
     
  18. Dale

    Dale F1 Veteran

    Oct 7, 2003
    5,211
    uk
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    Dale Juan
    Hi guys ive had a couple of ducatis and some of the jap stuff to,
    the ducatis do handle very well but also can fall to bits,the jap stuff to does its job,depending on model,sports or sports tourer,some can also brake your back after a 300+ mile blast out with the lads,so there are good points and bad with all of them,how much power they have means nothing if you cant chuck it round the bends,

    cheers
    Dale.
     
  19. LAfun2

    LAfun2 Three Time F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    #19 LAfun2, Apr 23, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  20. mad-dot

    mad-dot Karting

    Feb 24, 2004
    117
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    Stewart
    LA.....the ole colour wars..everyones a winner :)
     
  21. chaa

    chaa F1 Veteran

    Mar 21, 2003
    5,058
    I wish you Ducati boys would BEHAVE!!!! LOL! Now dont make me show you my unrestricted Busa!! becourse i will you know, i will.
     
  22. mad-dot

    mad-dot Karting

    Feb 24, 2004
    117
    Glasgow/Scotland
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    Stewart
    Quit while the goin's good Chaa..........that's my only other fave :)
     
  23. urraco

    urraco Formula Junior

    Feb 18, 2004
    492
    Mexiko
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    Nitram
    Ok let's forget about HP and numbers here: but isn't true that a 2 cylinders bike's ride is a lot more nervous because it vibrates a lot more than a 4 japanese like my CBR900RR. CORRECT ME IF i'M WRONG. , Isn't just a vibration issue therefore: durability etc.
     
  24. 348 Turbo

    348 Turbo Formula 3

    Jul 17, 2002
    1,837
    This is well said.
    I own, (and ride), a new R1. I absolutely LOVE the bike. I must admit, there is NO WAY I can use the power it makes. I've probably never even touched the last 20 hp it puts out. I simply love the way it rides. I've also riden a few Ducatis. I like them also. They are just "different". I happen to prefer the R1, that's all. One day I might buy a Ducati, we'll just have to see.
     
  25. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Sep 25, 2002
    13,197
    MO
    Just wondering where do BMW bikes fit in?
     

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