It's Official!! Renault's Mass Damper Ruled Illegal!

Ferrari has always been at the cutting edge of technology. The true spirit of creativity runs through out the team. Although initial research was carried out, once Ferrari and other teams realized that Mass-Dampers used by Renault were in clear violation of Article 3.15 they stopped.

It was Ron who decided that the FIA should know about Renault's illegal equiipment.

Ferrari continues to concentrate on real racing. Renault and McLaren are left behind fighting over petty issues!

 

So what is your source that once Ferrari realized that the TMD was in clear violation of Article 3.15 that they stopped trying to develop it? Every major publication has stated that both McLaren and Ferrari gave up their efforts to develop the TMD system because they could not get it to work right. And if Ferrari did realize that the TMD system was in violation of 3.15, then why did they not say something to the FIA at the start of the year? Perhaps they were too busy working on their flexi-wings programme?

 

Renault admitted themselves it had a an effect on aeros (even though it is in the car?!) so they shot themselves in the foot on this issue.

Thinking about this the Lotus 78 should have been banned also since it had moveable aero devices-the sliding skirts on the side pods......

 

Are you seriously saying the FIA had no idea the mass damper was part of the Renault? That they in no way had any idea it was there even thought the device was in plane view since last year?

 

I am fairly certain that it would have been the finding of the experts, that there was an important aerodynamic involvement with the TMD's, without Renault admitting it anyway.

The Lotus 78's, moving side skirts were banned, but not until a re-write of the rule books was issued by the FIA. I believe, this and "flipper" wing Chaparrals are where the no moveable aerodynamic devices started in motorsports.

 

It is possible that untill Ron complained, that the FIA was unaware of Renault consistent use of illegal equipment in the form of Mass-Dampers.

The FIA like any other sports governing body would expect that all competing teams would act in good faith. Renault chose to cheat. The complaint made by Ron gave the FIA a reason to act.

As I have said before, it was Ron and McLaren who made the complaint.

Ferrari were and are busy concentrating on real racing while McLaren and Renault fight over petty issues!

 

It took some time for the side skirts to be banned-1981; not only were they innovators, Chapman and Co. were geniuses at creatively interpreting the rules.

See here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_88

They weren't the only ones slick at interpreting the rules....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brabham_BT46#Brabham_BT46B_.E2.80.93_the_.E2.80.98Fan_car.E2.80.99

creative interpretation of the rules is part of racing.......

 

Not anymore it seems with Max Mosley at the head of FIA.

 

You are correct that it was 1981 when the ban was introduced, I was referring to the 78 as the "owner" of the idea. Yes, Chapman and Co., repeatedly produced novel answers to classic problems, were indeed adept at using the rules for all they were worth.

We agree on that as well...
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From my post #72 to Impy,
"Renault didn't cheat, they attempted to exploit a "grey area" in the regulations, that's racing. It required a ruling from the FIA to decide it's illegality under the rules. If they ran the TMD post ruling, hiding it somewhere in the nose of the car, that would be cheating."

 

Stop trying to weasel out of the question and answer it: What is your source that Ferrari found out that the TMD system was illegal under Section 3.15 that they stopped trying to develop it rather than what has been the published reports that Ferrari and McLaren could not make the system work and gave up on the TMD system? I don't deny that it was McLaren that made the complaint to the FIA but don't give us all crap about how Ferrari is as pure as the driven snow. You call out other people to cite their sources so now I'm doing the same to you. Cite EXACTLY for me where it was reported that FERRARI GAVE UP ITS DEVELOPMENT OF THE TMD SYSTEM BECAUSE FERRARI DISCOVERED IT TO BE ILLEGAL RATHER THAN NOT BEING ABLE TO MAKE THE SYSTEM WORK.

 

Please, make clear that the so called "mass damper" is NOT an andaerodynamic device, it is a mobile device that changes, or modify, whatever definition you like, the aerodinamic asset of the car. Therefore it is illegal, just like the Ferrari movable front small wing.

It has been a well kept secret because is housed in the nose cone but once it was discovered it was no brain to understand it was illegal. No matter what Briatore says.

 

You can speculate about Ferrari, but the TMD is illegal!!

 

I'd say it was impossible for them not to know that Renault was running the mass damper. They, the FIA, run the races. They have an individual at every event if not Mr. Whiting himself. As has been said, this device is certainly not new nor is it any surprise that Renault has been using this since last year. Are we really to believe that this is a case of sudden surprise by the FIA as you put it? Or really is this just you trying to cover your weak argument for the FIA's ruling. A ruling that is more political than in the interest of "fairness ." Unlike some electronic control located in the netherworld of a black box this thing was in full view. There's no way you could hide it on an F1 car. Have a look second from the bottom (also note that the official F1 site states that it indirectly improves aerodynamic efficiency): http://www.formula1.com/insight/technical_analysis/race/2006/762/315.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuned_mass_damper

While I'll agree that a sports governing body would expect that all teams would compete in good faith I'd also say I'm sure Renault were operating under that good faith. They'd had the device on the car for almost a year and NOTHING was said about it being illegal by the FIA prior to the past several weeks. We all know the only thing Ron hates more than Ferrari is Flavio. His whispering into the FIA's ear was nothing more than politics and a very large ax to grind. If indeed it was Ron who gave them their case, I haven't seen that article so please post a link as I'd like to read it.

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I'm sure they put in their .02 to the FIA on the matter and if it's such a petty issue then why are you still screaming about it?

Personally I think this whole thing smells of when the FIA banned Michelin's wide shoulder tire before Monza in 2003 thereby dissolving McLarens competitive edge and allowing MS to rally through to win the series in the final race. Good television? Yes. But, in my mind it's a tainted victory.

 

No ****, really????????

There is little room for speculation. Most of the major publications covering this matter have said that Ferrari and McLaren tried to develop the TMD system but gave up because they could not figure out how to make it work, not because they discovered that the system was illegal. I asked Impy if he had a source to back up his assertion that Ferrari did not pursue development of the TMD system because they discovered that it was illegal, and aside from pure conjecture and speculation he has not been able to provide a source. My point is that the other teams tried to develop it and couldn't make it work, so, if as Impy has said, if the TMD system has always been illegal, then McLaren, Ferrari and Toro Rosso are just as guilty as Renault for trying to develop a system in breach of that rule but they couldn't make it work. I don't believe that the system was illegal and I still think it is a brilliant piece of engineering that should have been allowed. There are any number of movable objects on the car that have a direct or inderect effect of the aerodynamic performance of the car but are not regulated as being movable aero devices, but you don't see the rules being redefined so as to regulate tire pressure, tire sidewall rebound, the driver's head moving around to increase airflow into the airbox, etc.

 

My source is the fact that Ferrari are an ethical team who have built decades of trust with their fans in F1. Ferrari does not cheat.

The mass-damper always was and always will be illegal under article 3.15. Renault has been got cheating and that is the ottom line!

 

When teams enter a competition it is taken that they will act in good faith and unless someone registers a formal complaint the ports governing body is busy running the sport. The FIA don't sit there and investigate every minute detal of the car.

Bottom line... mass dampes are now outlawed... it is time to get back to real racing!

 

The only reason I feel they should have let them run it is because the FIA pretty much is changing rules midseason. They approved it when it was introduced in Sept of last year. If it was anyone's job to check it's legallity it was theirs and they dropped the ball. The whole ruling and court and all that crap was just that, BS. If there was any real question about anything's legality that falls into a gray area then it should wait till season's end unless it's something blatant (flex wings for example). To ban something that was approved isn't fair to the team or to the fans that want to see racing on the track, not in some court room. They created the formula they should stand by it, not change things around because someone is crying like a ***** because they couldn't get the system to work.

Renault was the first to run a TMD, it was thier design, they got it to work while other teams couldn't even figure it out. Brilliant in my opinion.

P.S. To each their own, I like all forms of motorsport and wasn't even referring to NASCAR. There is plenty of passing in other series such as Champcar, ALMS, and yes even NASCAR. F1 needs some of this because things are getting mighty processional these days. Watching cars circle around and passing only in the pits just doesn't seem like racing to me. NASCAR might suck to you but if you saw the finish of the Busch race at the Glen you'd know why people watch it.. That's is why they have so many fans and attract new fans everyday. Wow this ignore user feature works pretty well, I see much less crap now................

 

But Ferrari also tried to develop the tuned mass damper system and they couldn't make it work, so did they not also intend to break the rules?

BTW I think as long as MS is part of the Ferrari team that they are not nearly as "ethical" as you would like to believe. Jerez '97 comes to mind.....

 

Michael Schumacher is the greatest racer of all time.. if you thin that Ferari is unethical don't support them. Ferrari can do without a few band wagon fans!

So far, the FIA decisions have only pointed towards Renault.

*************
DECISION OF THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF APPEAL

The FIA International Court of Appeal met in Paris on Tuesday, August 22, 2006, to examine the appeal made by the Federation Internationale de l’Automobile against Decision No. 8 handed down by the Stewards of the Meeting on July 28, 2006, concerning the T car of competitor Mild Seven Renault F1 on the occasion of the Grand Prix of Germany and counting towards the 2006 FIA Formula One World Championship.

Having heard the explanations of both parties and having examined the various documents and other evidence, the Court quashed decision No. 8 of the Stewards of the Meeting and ruled that use of the device known as a Tuned Mass Damper is an infringement of Article 3.15 of the Formula One Technical Regulations.

The International Court of Appeal was presided over by Mr Philippe ROBERTI de WINGHE (Belgium), elected President, Mr Pierre TOURIGNY (Canada), Mr John CASSIDY (United States) and Mr Anthony SCRIVENER (Great Britain).

The full text of the International Court of Appeal’s decision is available, on request, from the secretariat of the FIA International Court of Appeal in Paris.
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The only team mentioned in the above decision is the Unethical Renault Mild Cheating Seven team.

The FIA has not remarked anything about Ferrari! Ferrari sticks to real racing.

Cheats like Renault and Alonso try to win farce championships by using angles!

 

So how does Impy look in a short skirt? ("Ready. Okay")

Coming to a theatre near you: "A Fist Full of Pom-Poms".

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

(Are you familiar with the expression, "over the top"? )

 

I agree, be afraid Renault, be very afraid. Your two seconds of fame are up Alonso!

Its Michael's championship now!

 

There is a new polemic now. The new Ferrari rear wheels and they might have quite some aerodinamical effect. As they are moving parts not attached to the body, there you go more wood for the fire.

- Julio.

 

Right on:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=118722

The Speed TV guys mentioned it in their broadcasts and the Euro medias are already covering it.

BTW: Ethics and modern F1 simply don't mix. Don't tell me about any team in F1 to behave "ethically". If you believe in that, well I got some land for you at the North pole.

 

You, sir, are a moron.

I asked you what your source is for your assertion that Ferrari gave up on developing the TMD system because they discovered it was illegal rather than the published reports that they and McLaren gave up on depeloping the TMD system because they couldn't make it work and you have identified no source for that allegation, much as you called out racerx3317 on the whole "Charlie Whiting has changed his mind" thing. You can't provide a source so just admit it.

BTW, Limpy, don't ever call me a bandwagon fan. I've been rooting for Ferrari since I was 6 and that love for the team has endured through some pretty dark days. I can't stand MS but I rooted for Eddie Irvine and Rubens Barrichello. I just cannot stand seeing the FIA change the rules mid-stream like they have been doing, regardless of what teams it helps or hurts. I just so happen to believe that the timing of this whole controversy is intended to affect the WDC and I think it's garbage. But what is worse than than that are "fans" like you who think their team can do no wrong and are so blindly loyal to their team that they have thrown anything resembling common sense out the window.

 

I have a similar issue: Some folks think I'm a fair weather/bandwagon fan, but I'm not. Anybody who'd see my home realizes that a Ferrari nut lives here. I just don't feel like supporting MS anymore (I used to). It is a strange situation, but if Kimi sits in the red car next year, things will be normal again.

On an almost related note: It always saddens me when people only collect the MS stuff from the Irvine/Barrichello/Massa years. Worse when they own a real Ferrari F1 from the second driver and change the name to make it a MS car.