Italian Police in Monza Paddock *possible spoiler* | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Italian Police in Monza Paddock *possible spoiler*

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by Remy Zero, Sep 8, 2007.

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  1. lucky_13_2002

    lucky_13_2002 F1 Rookie
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    I think a lot of people here and mainly the press has made a much bigger deal out of it than it actually is. They went in the paddock and served some papers- standard procedure. I don't think they stormed in there unannounced with their guns out and sirens blaring.
    Did they maybe do it to also intimidate the McCheaters- sure, but maybe they were also (in their scuderia rosso brains) concerned with serving the papers asap and thought that they may have not the chance if they waited 'till after the race.
    And By the way, even if no one goes to Italy just the tiffosi can probably turn bigger sales figures than Indy did the last few years.
     
  2. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

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    What is your basis that McLaren should be DQed? They were not "found guilty of cheating" - they were found to have put the sport into disrepute by having not come clean about having access to Ferrari properietary information. The FIA did not say "you got their info and therefore you cheated", but rather the fact they did not bring it forth was the issue. And that is a small issue, which is why the penalty was small. If Couglan had sent McLaren info to Stepney and Stepney showed it to Brawn and Todt who said "get rid of it! We dont want to know anything" - you guys would be hailing Brawn and Todt for being men of honor for not taking advantage of what seemed like a sure thing. If it was Spyker who got the info and not McLaren none of you would be reacting this strongly. If it was Super Aguri who got stolen info from Honda you would probably not even have an opinion. But because it is McLaren - the biggest rival that Ferrari has in F1, you are screaming bloody murder. Sorry but the big act of outrage is a little hard to believe.

    As for the precedent - what precedent is being set? I would have the same reaction if Ferrari had McLarens data. If one rogue employee took it, shame on that employee. Shame on the employer for not whistleblowing but I dont think any of the teams on the grid would have blown the whistle on their own employee. Furthermore, I bet there are only a very very few teams that would not have taken full advantage of the information. There is absolutely no evidence that the info was used by McLaren for advantage, so other than the fact that McLaren didnt rat out their employee, and other than the fact that you all want to ban McLaren based on your ASSumption that they used the information (an ASSumption that has no proof). So I fail to see what McLaren has done that deserves banning from the WDC/WCC.

    If the new evidence shows otherwise, then let the punishment fit the crime. It has already - unless you guys believe McLaren were "lett of easy"??? If so, why? Let me guess - a big anti-Ferrari conspiracy within the FIA, right? Mosley on Dennis' payroll? Bernie waving his wand and keeping Mac alive?

    Come on folks - we all have brains and are intelligent individuals, but the witch hunt is embarassing for Tifosi.
     
  3. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

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    The professional way to do it would have been to contact McLaren at the hotel or contact them once Ron was already in-country and let them know they needed to serve documents and arrange a time/place BEFORE the race started. I am quite sure Ron/Martin would accomodate such a request. Showing up at the track is probably about making a statement and feeling self-important than it is about necessity.
     
  4. GoFerrari28

    GoFerrari28 Formula 3

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    I wonder how aggressive the Italian police and legal authorities will act if Stepney comes out and testifies to industrial espionage having been comitted by the Scuderia. I don't think Stepney would have made that "I know where the bodies are buried" comment unless he was serious.

    As much as I like Alonso, I'm rooting for Kimi to win the WDC now in conjunction with a huge McLaren fine and loss of WCC points, just so we will know that the WDC was won on skill. If Ferrari do something stupid like run Kimi out of gas again, er, I mean he suffers another "hydraulic failure", they'll just be adding to the mess this season has become.
     
  5. lucky_13_2002

    lucky_13_2002 F1 Rookie
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    Obviously have a way to selectively read only what suits you.
     
  6. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Right back at ya sport.

    So you would say that going to the track to serve papers on McLaren wasn't foreseeable to be a major news story that further escalates/mocks this whole "spy saga"??? I fail to see why it should not have been handled a bit more discretely, and I can't think how it could have been handled with any more pomp and circumstance other than the chief himself showing up during the first pit stop with a SWAT team :)
     
  7. lucky_13_2002

    lucky_13_2002 F1 Rookie
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    First of all McCheaters were found of breaching a specific article from the rules, which has a specific punishment by those same rules. You don't have to ask me, just ask F.Briatore what his grounds to think the same way are. And he has always been the loudest when accusations against Ferrari were existent.
    The precedent that it sets is that it allows other teams in the future to create a loophole in the rules regarding the punishment when specific rules are broken.
    Then again you may also question why Ben Johnson (?spell?) was disqualified many many years ago. What McCheaters did this year, which by the way becomes more and more obvious, is the exact same thing as an Athlete using performance boosting substances.
    I respect McCheaters (formerly known as McLaren) as one of the greatest names in the sport and as the worthiest of Ferrari rivals.
    I don't have pink glasses on (or rosso corsa glasses) but if they cheated, which apparently they did, they need to pay by the rules. It is not just our wish for them to get d-qd, but it is what the punishment is for their "crime". The civil courts I don't even care about.That issue should stay totally out of the sport.
     
  8. asds3x

    asds3x Karting

    Oct 11, 2004
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    Took the Italians 10 years farting around with the Senna trial, how long do you really think it will it take to resolve this ? Typical Italian crap all show and puffing chests. Almost as bad a going to the factory as a consumer, hurry up and wait while they all run around acting like they are doing something. Then they get all butt hurt when you complain about the lousy service.


    Ho hum.
     
  9. lucky_13_2002

    lucky_13_2002 F1 Rookie
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    What I was referring to was that I did say that it is most likely for intimidation purposes, but you apparently did not seem to read that part of my post. I, then entertained the idea that maybe because they are very bias indeed in their own thinking they could justify it by necessity.But you chose to twist my words and make it sound like I am all for the SWAT scenario. By the way they are called CARABINIERI as posted earlier but you apparently skipped that post too
     
  10. scud

    scud F1 World Champ

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    it's polizia , not policia mate
     
  11. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

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    I disagree.

    In my previous postings on this matter, I raised the issue that the punishment must fit the crime, and that we cannot rely on absolutes. I would say we relied on absolutes at Indy in 2005 and it was in nobody's best interest. I also brought up the fact that Ferrari were running illegal bodywork in 1999. They were "caught" and DQed. In their appeal, they said the bodywork was just a manufacturing fault and provided no benefit, and that they had been running it for a substantial portion of the season.

    The rules are clear. If the car is illegal, it is DQ'ed. Ferrari admitted they had been running an illegal car for much of the season. Clear cut situation, right They should have been DQ'ed from all those races and lost all points from those races. But cooler heads prevailed. The FIA re-instated their points and reversed the DQ, given that it was just a manufacturing fault and the bodywork provided no competitive advantage.

    So, I think whats good for the goose is good for the gander. The same interpretation of the rules must apply to McLaren. If the precedent has been set, it probably happened with Ferrari in 1999 - that is, that the rules should be interpreted in an intelligent and fair manner, not applied with a rigid iron fist. I maintain the FIA did exactly that. Yes, McLaren did not disclose the information and that was wrong. For that transgression they were given a slap on the wrist. I belive they acted honorably in not using the info and in telling Coughlan to get rid of it. I am sure all of us know about crimes comitted by a family member that we did not turn in. Before anyone crys foul - are you sure your wife/mother/child has never sped or ran a red light? Do you know of them speeding? Did you call the police to report a law being broken? Of course not.

    So the bottom line is McLaren should have acted differently, but I dont think any other team would do different than McLaren did. IF it turns out they have done more than we currently know about, then they should receive additional punishments.

    "cheating" to me is doing something underhanded to gain an advantage. Nobody has any knowledge of anything McLaren did to improve their cars speed on-track, therefore they did not "cheat", they just did not turn in one of their own and instead told him to get rid of the documents and stop his actions. I hardly think that warrants exclusion.

    But if you guys want to demand it, then I presume you also demand with equal vigor and vitriol that Ferrari be DQ'ed from the 1999 WDC and WCC?
     
  12. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Since you're all about reading and paying attention, maybe you can point out in my post (that was a reply to yours) where I said you were wrong? I only added my opinion to your opinion. I never said you were mistaken or I disagreed. I added to what you wrote by saying that IMO it could have been handled better and more professionally. I agreed with your assertion that there was an intimidation component to it - thats why I did not address that portion.

    ...or maybe its just easier to do the whole "you cant read, you are twisting my words around, you dont even know what they are called" BS. Whatever floats your boat sport. Its gonna be a long season if there's another 500 posts like this one waiting.
     
  13. asds3x

    asds3x Karting

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    Amen !

    But then we wouldn't see any of these ghey cutesy names like Mc Cheater or derivitives of Alonso name.
     
  14. lucky_13_2002

    lucky_13_2002 F1 Rookie
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    Somehow I have the feeling that that asds3x stands for something like A.Senna 3xworld champ and also leads me to believe that you also post, or have posted, under different but also similar name .
    Amazing how all the Alonshole supporters, posting mostly anti-Ferrari post have Senna in their names (with one exception that I know about)
     
  15. pastmaster

    pastmaster Formula Junior

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    Awright, made a spellinmg error.

    G'day
     
  16. lucky_13_2002

    lucky_13_2002 F1 Rookie
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    I think we are going nowhere with this. As my dad likes to say, we are saying the same thing in different languages.
    I guess we agree on one thing tho.
    If found guilty, they should be punished. And we can only speculate about guilt or the verdict.
    So I say lets just wait and see, because this not going to be just over next week. We got to be crazy to think that if found guilty and punished McLaren(just for you) would not appeal, same way as it would be foolish to believe that Ferrari would not appeal if McLaren are not punished. Either way the smart arses from FIA are not going to allow a final verdict to be reached before the end of the season and I don't believe that McL would be destroyed. That would be just naive to believe.
     
  17. asds3x

    asds3x Karting

    Oct 11, 2004
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    What part of using ghey nicknames for the drivers is too hard for you to understand? Are you a product of public schooling ? Regardless of your feelings for FA he is the current 2 time WC. It's not a question of being anti anything ,but since you are blind to anything but the temple of FIAT direct your anger to the Ferrari employee who started the whole thing.
     
  18. moretti

    moretti Five Time F1 World Champ
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    dropkick agreeing with MISINFORMATION

    the '99 assertion by Lucifer that Ferrari was running illegal bargeboards has been disproven many times on this board, they were proved legal so get over it !!

    Drum up some other stuff where Ferrari have been DQ'd for breaking the rules because this was a dead duck, even the official document has been posted regarding the bargeboard issue which cleared Ferrari
     
  19. RussianM3_dude

    RussianM3_dude F1 Rookie
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    That would go down in History as the funnyest police chase ever.
     
  20. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    +100

    By what is presently known how can some on here get to the fact that the Mclaren team needs wiping of the face of the earth.?


    A bent ferrari staff member wanted retribution for being sidelined and used data as an appropriate agent. whether or not this has being used is the where the problem is big deal ok but for how long is its worth such is the pace of advancements.

    Mclaren have kept developing there car regardless.
    does'nt The fact the car is faster in ferraris back yard speak volumes..

    For some on here This self righteous infliction of wanting Mclaren fed to the pigs Personified by the fact they are not winning is sour and quite frankly shamefull.

    Now do you understand everything I've said? Because if you don't, I'll kill ya. attitude makes me sick..


    The people involved in the scam, let the law mete out its hardest punishments for wrecking this years season..



     
  21. hg

    hg Formula Junior

    Dec 26, 2005
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    After all the posted discording opinions, I think we can all agree with Luca di Montezemolo's statement: "This is a bad thing, a very bad thing,...AND I AM WAITING FOR THE TRUTH TO COME OUT...AS THIS IS FUNDAMENTAL FOR EVERYBODY".
     
  22. GINO ROSSI

    GINO ROSSI Rookie

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    I cant believe anyone can still defend MM. If the new e-mail evidence is true(Alonso himself said he did what he had to do), then
    this whole thing went from "only one guy knew about the dossier" -" rogue employee " " no advantage" etc. to drivers exchanging SF setup info.
    Before the new evidence came to light, lucifer was preaching how ethical he and his team are, and now he seems to have gone
    mysteriously quiet. Does he finally realize he is busted? Is he afraid the whole world will now see what a lying, cheating, pathetic
    slime ball he really is? I guess we will have to wait and see.
     
  23. lucky_13_2002

    lucky_13_2002 F1 Rookie
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    Please , someone, show me the relevance between my post and this.
     
  24. Senna3xWC

    Senna3xWC F1 Rookie

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    There are many on those board who are not waiting for the truth to come out, they made up their minds long, long ago.

    Those of us who think we should wait for facts to be known (note: that is "facts", not allegations, not hearsay, not speculation) before we leap to conclusions have to suffer being labelled "McLaren Apologists" or worse. I guess LdM is also a McLaren apologist?!? :confused:
     
  25. Senna3xWC

    Senna3xWC F1 Rookie

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    Mike:

    Excellent post, as usual. Unfortunatley it appears to be largely falling on deaf ears.
     

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