I understand and appreciate your sentiment. Personally, though, I am not a collector. I love em and then leave em. Consequently, it is important to keep my gun powder dry. I don't buy to make money. However, I prefer not to lose six-figures door to door. Of course, from a personal perspective, buying another vintage Ferrari is quickly becoming a moot point. The Skip Barber race car trainers have an acronym for those who don't have what it takes: OSB or Other Sports Beckon. I'm afraid I have fallen to the OCB (other cars beckon) category. Dale
Look... I'll say it again... when you went to see the bubble burst on F cars, the first place to look is Dino prices. It will be the first to "go". Why? There's a lot more of them out there and coming into the market and therefore, more people to wonder if they will be burnt. Honestly, I think many auction houses should just be shot for doing nothing more than over promoting, hyping, and rallying speculators into raising prices for cars they have for sale that are clearly overpriced in the market at the time -- then making their cut and leaving everyone else is the dumpster when it falls apart.
Art is a fickle thing. I'm not sure cars fall into that category. Steve Sailer: iSteve: Priming: Responses change over time
IMO, just because someone has a million bucks and wants a Dino, Daytona, wahetver doesnt not infer that they have taste or the knowledge of value. They simply have the ability to pay the money asked. Unfortunately there are a lot of people who see the market has risen by looking at prices of Gullwings, 275's et al and think lets get on that gravy train and fair enough to them, money talks. What you end up with though is the few near unobtainium cars, such as GTO's retaining value even in a downward market, because they are so rare. The rest, well, they might seem like a good buy but really how rare are they, and the buyers may not be buyers for very long. Just look at 1990, there were more buyers than Ferraris, the price simply didnt matter and then........................ there were no buyers, prices crashed etc. etc.
No question that responses change over time. The Key is not thinking about what something may be worth but to buy what you want to own. The most valuable art I own was not in favor when I bought it. I didn't care I liked it. There was also, because of the Death of the Artist a huge glut. (Over three hundred oils hit the market at the same time from his estate). His later work was considered lacking/angry/sexual. The one I bought wasn't but the period was looked down on.
John, just alter the wording a little bit as it does work also. I've have purchased and will in the future purchased a car because I thought it was a good investment. Honestly, I expected to make money on each and every one. The classic & vintage cars I have purchased were bought with my heart, and my brain. I bought them also because they moved and inspired me, as well as diversifying my portfolio. I purchased what I could comfortably afford, seemed to be reasonable value and I thought I would get a hell of a lot of enjoyment from. I bought them to drive hard and lovingly maintain. I got to know each and every wonderful little nuance. I never worried about bubbles, speculators, who's buying and selling, who will care about the cars in the future... All that mattered was me and the car. Looking back, this has served me extremely well over the last 30 years. I plan to keep on doing exactly the same.
I've heard that, even with new buyers coming into the classic car auction scene annually, the average age of registered bidders has been increasing as well. If true, I suppose it could be inferred that the market for the current crop of cars that are selling will dry up when the crowd gets too old.
Buy what you like at a price you can afford. Once you own it price isn't an issue, until it comes time to sell. Which if you love it will be years away.
That's true for everyone. No matter how wealthy. After all "a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?"
This whole discussion over the recent jump in values being a "bubble" presents an interesting question. With new 911s & Merc SLs routinely going out the door well north of $100K, is $200K for a good 330 GT or $250K for a GTE really too much? The Ferraris are certainly a reasonable "daily driver" in the right climate and won't drop $30K in value like the "modern" alternative. Value for money. just sayin'
I've read this interesting thread through 1610 hrs on 16 Feb and come back to Onno's post. In 1978 I bought from Chinetti a 1967 330GTC for $25,000., an over-the-top price at the time and much more than I could afford. But I had loved the GTC's since I saw my first one in Easthampton L.I. in 1966. The car turned out to be the prototype 365GTC, a 330 with a typ 245 4.4 liter engine ordered to be installed by Enzo for his friend Leopoldo Pirelli, CEO of the patronymic Company. In the early 1980s I had Nereo Iori completely rebuild it, engine, drive train, suspension, brakes, the works, and in the mid-late 1980s Bill DeCarr did a metal-up cosmetic restoration and Lyle Tanner a new interior, Connolly leather, wilton carpets, etc. Maybe had another $25K in the car. In the late 1980's Lyle called me and said he had an interested buyer who was willing to pay $90K - at the time 330GTC/365GTC prices ran $75-85K. I was tempted as that was a lot of money for me at the time. But I had said when I bought the car that it was for always, I had turned down many offers saying it would be for sale by my executor, hopefully many decades away. Over the next year or so, Lyle kept calling saying he had an offer of $125K, then 140K, then 185K, each time becoming more tempting as ordinary 330GTC prices crept toward $200K. Then came 1990-91 and the market fell apart, you could buy beautiful 330GTCs for $75K. and I still had my unique car, enjoyed driving it and lending it to the Behring Museum at Blackhawk and the Petersen. A few years ago the current market rise began and I finally agreed to let David Gooding sell the car at his Pebble Auction in July 2007. 330/365GTC prices for a super car at the time were around $250K, perhaps a bit more. The hammer price was $345K, with buyer's commission, Wayne Oldenburg paid $380K. He sold the car three weeks ago at Bonhams' Scottsdale auction at a hammer price of $800,000. - with commission almost $900,000. I believe an ordinary 330GTC has since sold for close to $500,000, quite astonishingly eclipsing the Daytona market. I have another perspective: in the early 1990s I was engaged as an expert witness (legal ethics, no wise cracks please!) in a legal malpractice litigation where the defendant law firm had been involved for a client in an aborted transaction to buy a Ferrari 250GTO. The law firm that engaged me was delighted to learn that I also had useful expertise in Ferraris and their values. The putative deal at the time had valued the GTO at $12MM US. So you see what twenty years of inflation has done. All of that as background for observing that while this is not a Dutch tulip bulb bubble, the market is smelling a bit toppy, a lot of money chasing relatively few cars. At some point, no one knows when or how, the economy and the tax structures favoring a concentration of wealth at the top that have nurtured this market will change and people will begin to be careful about throwing millions of dollars at automobiles.
I have to agree with Seth on the post before me. I have followed the Ferrari market since the late 1970s and have watched the ups and downs occur. Obviously nobody knows where the top is and how far values will drop but something does not feel quite right to me. I believe there are artificial forces pushing the market forward. The bandwagon effect seems to be happening where people think they need to jump on now or they will be out forever. Not only are some prices ridiculous but the pecking order of the cars is out of whack. That is more telling to me. People with large sums of money and no great passion for the cars can just as easily walk away when they are bored or when the next big investment opportunity comes up. I could be way off on this but my gut says beware. If you love the car and aren't concerned about the cost this doesn't matter. At these price levels though these cars have become investments and risky ones at that for the average Ferrari lover.
This is indeed a great saying. How many people you know say ' oh I wish I had bought then'. Very very many. How many people say 'I wish I had sold then'. Almost nobody. The point is we all regret what we have sold that we have once loved. So buy things that fit your budget, keep it for along time (which nobody has any willingness to do anymore) and you do not have to worry about cycles and bubbles. Is the prices for vintage Ferrari high? Sure they are. But will they correct and what will the price decine be? Nobody knows that. We can only assume they will one day. But timing that is difficult and then finding a good car again also. So my advice: Ignore the hype and the bubbles. And enjoy your cars and keep them and perhaps even pass them on to the next generation....
I was at a Kruse Collector Car Auction in Miami in late 1989.... I heard this exact quote from at least 3 different classic car dealers who were there to buy over a 2 day period. Oooooooops. Today - its pretty common to see a car move from one dealer to another and then another. There are lots more "dealers" in the game too. Both of these are HUGE warning signs of a bubble. That said - even though there may be a bubble (and I think there is) that does not mean prices will not continue to go up for years to come. Bubbles can get HUGE before they pop and timing that is almost impossible. Personally, I think this bubble has years left to run and it will not be at risk of bursting until real estate prices truly turn around and begin a solid move upward nationwide. Terry
Jim, I've quoted you several times when these kind of investment threads have come up. I'm not sure if it's original to you and I'm not sure if I have it right but it goes something like this: Buy what you like because you may be stuck with it for a while. Cars definitely fall into that category. Nick Mason said when he bought the GTO back in the 70's people thought he was crazy for buying a washed up race car. The same can be said for the Dino. It went from "has been" to star. The same will happen to the Ferrari challenge cars of today. Junk will become treasure in another time. -F
I've given similar advice to anyone opening a business: Don't open a McDonalds franchise unless you love McDonalds hamburgers. Chances are someday it may be the only thing you eat for a while.
think it fits here: the very rare 1958 Goggomobil TL-400 Transporter in 'PEZ' livery (above), a small commercial vehicle which made USD 172,500. Classic Driver - MAGAZINE - auctions Image Unavailable, Please Login
