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is the bubble due to burst?

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by PFSEX, Jan 18, 2013.

  1. davidoloan

    davidoloan Formula Junior

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    The Cayenne makes for a good Volkswagen.
     
  2. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I really like my Cayenne diesel. 30 mpg at 90 mph works for me!


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  3. randkin

    randkin Formula 3

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    George, Pretty good buyers market for a 612 now. IMO
     
  4. randkin

    randkin Formula 3

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    Wasn't Enzo's fav driver a 2+2. I thought I saw a picture of it and was surprised.
     
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  5. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    You have a typical American perspective. Most Americans don't understand the idea of cars for long distance travel-- and with good reason, the distances are just too long.

    That's not at all the case in Europe, however. So Ferrari has always built cars for their most important customers-- businessmen who use them for high speed transcontinental travel, and sometimes daily use. That's why they built the 612, FF, and even the big V-12 GT cars.

    Furthermore, the big GT cars have always been their most profitable, highest margin products. I bet the margins on the 612 all-in (considering tooling, set up expenses, etc) were significantly better than the Enzo.

    I should say, the 612 was a bit of an odd case, because it was being sold in the 2008-10 timeframe, and that was a tough time to be selling $300k+ GT cars. So they weren't able to sell nearly as many as they would typically.
     
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  6. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    Incidentally, I love the 365GTC/4. I've come close to owning one in the past, and still hope to do so before too long. It's really a buyer's market on those!
     
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  7. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I get that. I also understand the company has historically not been run in the most efficient manner in terms of product mix. Plus we have short memories. The MSRP on the 1999 F360 was $140,000. Even Ferrari didn’t understand they had an out of the ballpark home run when the car first came out (although they quickly caught up).

    Frankly I think Ferrari would do better today if it built fewer, and more expensive, sports cars, i. e., a top that drops over two seats. But what do I know?


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  8. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper F1 World Champ
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    The sticker from my '01 456M was nearly $100K more than that; $237K. Only the halo cars had a higher MSRP until the 575M came out the following year.
     
  9. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
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    The F360 sticker quickly jumped to $170k. However, nobody paid that little. The buyer premiums shot up to over $100k in some cases as the flippers got into the game. The dealers loved it. Spa not so much.

    I don’t recall any of the V12s selling for over MSRP. In the history of Ferrari, the F360 was a game changer.


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  10. SCantera

    SCantera Formula 3
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    Aug 4, 2004
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    Glad I didn't like my blu Pozzi 360 when the market was on fire. Trade bait for the 330+550.

    Agree that two seat convertibles are the fat part of the market here in the States. To me a front engine V-12 drop top is the epitome of desirability. The Daytona Spider is a perfect example. Even more beautiful is a 275 GTS/4 NART Spider......the curves on that beauty!! Too bad the Daytona was already set for production before Chinetti convinced Enzo to build the NART Spider. Daytona Spiders were maybe $22k when new and now are $1.5m +. The 275 NART is $20m!

    I have an 05 SA that I equate to a modern Daytona. Open air driving w/ conveniences of power steering and real a/c. The sound of the V-12 in song with the top down is exhilarating! Not sure I will live long enough to see the SA hit $1m. That will be for my heirs to figure out since like the 330 I won't sell the SA. But a limited production front engine V-12 convertible has shown some pretty strong value over the decades.

    A few years ago an FChatter was selling his 3 pedal SA. I did my due diligence and sent him a deposit on a purchase price of $205k. A day later a friend and client of mine asked me if he could buy it. Being a good friend I agreed and assigned the contract to him. I think a stick SA just sold for $900k+ at one of the auctions in Monterey. I must be a better friend than investor.....lol!!
     
  11. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    I think they should sell fewer, more expensive cars too. But the second part of your statement shows your bias toward the US market. Ferrari sells worldwide, and all markets don't have the same preferences.
     
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  12. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
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    You mean there is something else besides the US?


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  13. Bradwilliams

    Bradwilliams F1 Rookie
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    Phaeton is one the most amazing machines ever conceived. Touareg isn't too shabby either. I miss my Phaetons. My 740 is much pretty but nowhere even close to as good.

    The first gen Touregs always looked way better than the cayenne in my opinion.
     
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  14. Platini 289

    Platini 289 Karting

    Sep 21, 2015
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    “the average sale price for Ferraris dropped more than $1 million, to $1.3 million” Jonathan Klinger of Hagerty’s ref. Monterey Auctions

    From the below link – I’d be interested to hear people’s thoughts on this. Seems the modern hypercars are where it’s at now. Not sure about older cars….

    The Porsche and Ferrari markets have corrected.“Selling three cars for $91.5 million can hide a lot of misses,” said Jonathan Klinger, who wrote the final auction report for Hagerty’s. (He was referring to the $48.4 million Ferrari 250 GTO, a 1963 Aston Martin DP215 that sold for $21.4 million, and a 1935 Duesenberg SSJ that sold for $22 million.) “The $1 million to $10 million range underperformed this year, and Ferrari in particular did not fare well.” What’s more, the sell-through rate for Ferrari was “a shocking” 53 percent, he said, down from 68 percent in 2017. Excluding the outlier 250 GTO, this year the average sale price for Ferraris dropped more than $1 million, to $1.3 million.

    http://fortune.com/2018/09/08/mecum-auctions-monterey/
     
  15. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper F1 World Champ
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    As I mentioned a few days ago, we may be seeing a correction. This is more evidence.
     
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  16. sixcarbs

    sixcarbs F1 Veteran
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    Interesting to break it down by price ranges. But where are your cutoffs. Here are the ranges I would like to see what is happening in.

    Over $10 million- rarefied air
    $2 million to $10 million
    $1 million to $2 million
    $500,000 to $1 million
    $200,000 to $500,000
    $100,000 to $200,000
    Under $100,000
     
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  17. Platini 289

    Platini 289 Karting

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  18. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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  19. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Is it me or are there fewer cars on the market, at least open?

    I dont see many 275, 1 or 2 lussos..even daytonas are not as abundant as 1 year ago.
     
  20. Smiles

    Smiles Moderator
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    Nov 20, 2003
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    I agree.

    Asking prices seem a little lost also.

    Matt
     
  21. dwhite

    dwhite F1 Rookie


    If you had one, would you be selling? I wouldn't.
     
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  22. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Which makes me think these cars have fallen into the hands of super wealthy buyers. Not just wealthy. People who either owned them and are not motivated by a $2m bonus on their buy price 10/20 years ago or they bought at the highest or close to and don't need to sell.
     
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  23. randkin

    randkin Formula 3

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    Wait until the market and then the economy goes south about 15-20% exotic cars, airplanes, yachts and vacation homes all become available at greatly reduced prices. Now there is so much money available and relative few things to invest in at a reasonable price there is no real motivator to sell. You have to do something with the cash that is going to earn substantially more money or give substantially more satisfaction after tax is taken out for the cap gain. Not so easy to do currently IMO.
     
  24. HighCountry

    HighCountry Rookie

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    Elon Musk will be the new Howard Hughes.
     
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  25. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

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    I can definitely see him repeating "the way of the future" indefinitely while looking at himself in a mirror...
     
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