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is the bubble due to burst?

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by PFSEX, Jan 18, 2013.

  1. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    Not a problem my friend. My humor can be pretty dry at times. As I said many times, discussion on overvaluation and bubbles is a healthy thing. Just take a look at BWs posts though and you'll see he approaches this from a position of spite. He will be the first to admit he desires investors, buyers, and collectors to have their collective clocks wiped, for no other reason then disdain of the high prices.

    I can understand a person that were priced out of an F40 and seeking to 'talk down' the market so they can acquire it at a more attractive price - fair position. But it doesn't matter if the F40 is 300K or 3MM - he doesn't plan to buy in either scenario. So it's obvious to me and many others here what his agenda is, and it's not celebrating the marque we all enthusiastic for and love.
     
  2. nis1973

    nis1973 Formula Junior

    Jan 19, 2013
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    Didn't they get to 1.5-1.6mm USD? Or is it that euro versions are alway a bit cheaper?
     
  3. technom3

    technom3 F1 Rookie
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    Euro versions vs USA version. And then you have mileage and service. I was working on acquiring a 1 owner 4k mile US spec car for 1.3ish and advancing it to a client from there. Unfortunately I ended up chasing my tail and the seller after agreeing to price and everything never decided to complete the deal. He got cold feet I guess...
     
  4. cnpapa24

    cnpapa24 F1 Rookie
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  5. technom3

    technom3 F1 Rookie
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    Also, we both left out crash history. There are more than one of these that have been wrecked and wrecked pretty hard...
     
  6. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    1.5 happened privately. 1.25 or 1.5 really who cares? does it matter?
    also if the 1,25 was without commission add another 5 to 10 percent to that.
     
  7. cnpapa24

    cnpapa24 F1 Rookie
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    My "other potential issues" was a catch all. :)
     
  8. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    which f40 are you guys referring to with crash history?
     
  9. technom3

    technom3 F1 Rookie
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    I was not speaking of any specific F40 with crash history. I was referring to that some cars have been offered at 900 or below a million and that typically these cars have had crash history. I am not saying that all cars offered at 900 has crash history or the ones currently offered have/had crash history. I was more of saying that there are always "inexpensive" alternatives... but... you can and often uncover crash history or the car needs turbos and fuel bladders etc... and needs 100k to be up to snuff etc...

    I don't think the other person was referring to any particular car having crash history either but I will let them speak for themselves.
     
  10. cnpapa24

    cnpapa24 F1 Rookie
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    Correct.
     
  11. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    understood thanks
     
  12. Platini 289

    Platini 289 Karting

    Sep 21, 2015
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    Let's be clear, £ 924,000 all in, i.e. including commissions. Absolute top of the F40 market.

    at @rmsothebys at #RMLondon auction

    •Single ownership and under 5,700 kilometres from new
    •Recent full service, including cam belts, by Monaco Motors
    •Includes books and tools
    •Ferrari Classiche certified






     
  13. msn

    msn Formula Junior

    Jan 22, 2011
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    Palatini does it really matter what was paid, buy what you love keep the car and enjoy it.
    What you perceive as top of market is irrelevant and in 10 years it will make no difference at all. The people fighting over the 993 GT2 last night that sold for 2 million GBP seem to have the right idea. Life is to short to worry about if you pay 10 % more for a car..
    For your information several F40 have been sold for more than the car last night.( quite a bit more ) Most of these transactions are happening throughout the world by private treaty.
     
  14. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    yeh and don't forget back when things were "hot" the likes of platini wld remind us that auctions weren't exactly representative of the "true" market so you ask me and I'll say the right buyer wasn't at the auction otherwise it wld have gone 1.5m no problem. someone shld post the start date of this thread on a tombstone and just put this thread to rest. top of the market, my lord. it's been 3 years.
     
  15. Platini 289

    Platini 289 Karting

    Sep 21, 2015
    81
    MSN, TT, Jeez you guys are touchy! Your interpretation of my posts is that I am a doom-monger. I think that shows a little insecurity on your part, as I am anything but. I like facts hence I regard auction results as one important yardstick in assessing market health. You mention the private treaty market. This is elusive and hard to pin down. I for one would not like to rely on it! Plenty of smoke and mirrors therein. I do not agree with you that the price you pay now isn't relevant in 10 years time - try telling that to someone who paid £1M GBP for an F40 in the late 1980s! (granted billionaires think differently). 10% over the odds on a car, eh? Some would argue the 1995 Porsche 911 GT2 at RM Sothebys sold last night for a lot more than that! Peace guys :eek:)
     
  16. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    58 of ur 60 odd posts are about the demise of ferrari prices


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  17. Platini 289

    Platini 289 Karting

    Sep 21, 2015
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    That is your interpretation TT - your interpretation. F.W.I.W. I cannot see any half decent F40s going much below £500,000 at any time, if that makes you feel any better.
     
  18. nis1973

    nis1973 Formula Junior

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    Sorry I brought up the F40 - I'm no expert and didn't mean to argue the market is up, down or sideways. I just seem to remember reading a heated discussion a couple of years ago between Joe Sackey and others on whether an F40 had sold for 1.6mm somewhere here in the Northeast. That's all...

    Actually, where the F40 traded is only interesting to the extent it fits in the very healthy tone of this auction. The real story is the great prices that the limited production 911s got. RM did a great job bringing special cars, that have great condition and provenance and were new to the market. I think both RM and the seller were really smart about how they went around selling this collection. By setting reasonable (low actually) estimates on these cars they communicated loud and clear that the cars were truly for sale and serious bidders' time won't be wasted. It's a ballsy strategy but it paid off big. I'm pretty sure the GT2 shattered previous records and the 964 turbo s lightweight might have as well. I don't think they would have gotten these prices if they had taken the usual route of aspirational estimates (and presumably reserves) that could put off serious bidders. Good for RM and the seller and good for the GT2 buyer who can afford to pay a big price for a big car..
     
  19. cnpapa24

    cnpapa24 F1 Rookie
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  20. technom3

    technom3 F1 Rookie
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    excellent excellent article. I love all the stats and reasons why numbers may differ from previous years. That is often left out this day in age on the internet. People just grab the low hanging fruit that is put in front of them. To find out why numbers were either higher or lower or the same is just as important as the number!


    Thank you for posting.
     
  21. technom3

    technom3 F1 Rookie
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    I agree with your assesment on the reserves. I think Bonhams did try this in monterey. All of there estimates were conservative (relative to auction houses) They were estimating carrera GTs at 550-650... many were suggesting 750+ There were several examples of that... my car included however, it didnt pay off in my case. It may have been the venue. May have been the fire. could have been traffic... its all possible.
     
  22. Finitele

    Finitele Formula 3

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    Daytonas and Dinos suffered in Monterey
     
  23. Juan-Manuel Fantango

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    Daytona's never really reached the level I expected them to. Sure a few sold for over 1mm, but seems 600-850 is the norm. Although a long way from 125 around 2002 or so. They're great cars, just not a 275.
     
  24. ersatzS2

    ersatzS2 Formula Junior
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    Even that is debatable. I've posted elsewhere the idea that if lightening suddenly struck 300 specific individuals around the globe, the contemporary art market would collapse. A very small number of folks make up the 'market' for some categories and high end collectibles is exhibit A. To clarify, I'm talking about true collector grade items that comprise the top 1-2% of auto prices. Turbo Porsches, and I own three at the moment, don't qualify; they are used cars susceptible to fluctuations far too diverse and oblique to quantify.

    A rough shorthand of this is simply production numbers; if they made more than 5-600 units, it's generally not ever going to achieve more than inflation adjusted results.
     
  25. sherpa23

    sherpa23 F1 Veteran
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