IRL/Champ Car Merger 2007? | Page 4 | FerrariChat

IRL/Champ Car Merger 2007?

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by RP, Feb 26, 2006.

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  1. Gilles27

    Gilles27 F1 World Champ

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    Sad but true. Although the cars DID used to excite in Indy racing. Now they just sound like fender-less stock cars.
     
  2. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

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    But does that mean as fans we should give it up? If you have read my previous posts, you would know I am no fan of Champ Car, although the original reasons for this feeling defected to IRL (or should I say defecated?).

    I do follow the results of IRL, watch a few races, and have kept my Indy 500 tickets just in case. They do put on a great show. If the series is properly planned and scheduled, I think the new combined Indy type car series will do very well after 2-3 years. It will like starting a brand new series, just like when Panoz started ALMS, and they seem to be doing well.

    So I would suggest that as race fans, we give a merger a chance. I think all concerned know they have to perform to survive. That will be to the benfit of the fan.
     
  3. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    They do? Not to be cynical here, but last time I watched they were doing laps in front of an empty stadium (Daytona I believe it was).

    Maybe the series has now some following. Although I never quite understood what is so spectacular about 911s.
     
  4. writerguy

    writerguy F1 Veteran

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    UNfortunatly this keeps going and going like Bruce's Bunny.

    The last time I talked to Mario he had just had a dinner meeting at his house where the topic was merger. They had a deal put together Tony was there others were there. they were ready to finalize all agreed on secrecy till they could iron out the details


    Next day Tony issues press statement that the exact opposite happened....

    This was a year ago. the idea was to have unity for the 06 season....

    The only roadblock is Tony's tremendous ego and incompetence
     
  5. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Why am I not surprised?
     
  6. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

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    ALMS does not race at Daytona, those empty seats you saw were for the Rolex series, namely the 24 Hours of Daytona. ALMS races before very good crowds at places like Road Atlanta, Road America, I believe Laguna and Mid-Ohio, etc. And then there was the large over flow crowd at Sebring last week, their premier event. The Porsche 911's, actually their racing variations, are really part of secondary ALMS classes like GT2 and GT3. The primary ALMS class includes cars like the recent diesel powered Audi that won Sebring and Penske's Porsche effort. These cars also run at LeMans.

    As for the Rolex series, sometimes good side by side racing, much better than F1, but those cars are sooooo ugly. This is a series "sponsored" by NASCAR, has serious manufacturer support, but is a losing proposition when compared to the ALMS. I think I might be going to the Rolex event tomorrow night at Homestead just for curiousity. And the price is only $20!!! So from that perspective, they are a good deal for those of us that require periodic doses of petrol fumes.
     
  7. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Thanks for the info. So Rolex is where those fugly Cadillacs race? Yikes.

    Note to myself: Look into ALMS on Speed.
     
  8. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

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    If you mean the Cadillac that raced LeMans some years ago, then no, it was in fact part of ALMS. If you mean the four door CTS or whatever they are called, I do not believe that was either series. I think SPEEDTV had some sort of sedan challenge. Ugly is in the eyes (and mind) of the beholder. On the street, those Cadillacs are very fast.
     
  9. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    No, not the Le Mans Cadillac, that one was quite ok. Impressive indeed.

    I mean that fugly saloon Cadillac they turned into a race car. I know I have seen that in a US series on Speed and thought it was utterly ridiculous. And I believe it was against some P cars (I hate them so much I always remember them...). :)
     
  10. BigAl

    BigAl F1 Veteran

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    #85 BigAl, Mar 24, 2006
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    is this the one you're talking about?
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  11. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Dont think so. Actually I thought they looked even uglier than this: Like very flat body with a cabin sticking out like a sore thumb.
     
  12. Gilles27

    Gilles27 F1 World Champ

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    I'll definitely give any kind of racing a chance. I haven't turned my back on it, I just think they've made a terrific sequence of dim-witted decisions these last 10 years that have made both IRL & CART hard to embrace. Here's what will be funny (at least to me) to watch: within the next few years Tony George will be reduced to the two-bit, nobody, peanut-brained wanna-be he really is. He's about to lose his grand prix because the Europeans play in the big leagues and he's in over his head with them. His IRL series always has been and always will be mediocre, at best, no matter how much sunshine-out-the-a$$ rhetoric he spouts. He has dragged down the stature of the Indy 500 so far that now it's questionable whether it's in the top 5 races in this country alone. And now we hear talk of him selling out the Speedway all together? And as for CART--oh wait. I meant to say BridgestonePresentsChampionshipAutoRacingPoweredByFord...Yeah, which over-paid marketing hack came up with that gem, and who's his/her boss that gave it the green light?! But anyway, as for CART, their leader didn't have his head up his a$$...because they had no leadership! Yet, somehow they still managed to find the hole with their collective head.

    I wish all the luck in the world to them. They're going to need it. And they're also going to need to realize at some point that racing anemic-looking and -sounding open-wheel cars around identical ovals doesn't create a fan base. You gotta go to the good tracks, and to where the people are.
     
  13. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I hope so. He'll go down in racing history as the guy who ruined CART solely to foster his ego. He doesn't even begin to comprehend what Bernie and his cronies are capable of.
     
  14. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

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    Disagree totally. CART was ruined by the team owners that thought they could run a race series themselves. No successful race series is run by the actual participants. The fact that the proprietor of the major race of that series was the one that formed the break-away series IRL does not supercede the greed and BS of the original CART teamowners. If not him, somebody else with the money would have ultimately done it themselves. Descention was already brewing. Unfortunetely it appears that George's personality is not one that illicits fondness.

    Nevertheless, Having been there in the pits I will always blame Penske, Patrick, and Ganassi for the demise of CART. Not Tony George.

    As for a relationship with Bernie, Bernie needs Tony, Tony does not need Bernie. Other than Panoz, there is NO one at this time that can step up to the plate and organize a USGP. Tony has the money and the facility, and so far, he has done a good job. It's the F1 circus that failed Tony and the US F1 fans, not the opposite. Bernie, and the majority of the sponsors of the F1 teams, very much want a successful GP in the USA. Right now, sadly, there is only one place, and one person Bernie and friends need to please. If Indy does not renew the USGP, and I am going to assume it is George's call, do not expect to see a successful US F1 venue for a long time.

    And that really sucks.
     
  15. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

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    These are the only Cadillac sedans in racing since the Le Mans attempts in the 1950's.
     
  16. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Since other knowledgeable people on here (Oldguy) have agreed with you about this in the past and I know little about it, I'll go with your call. Although I have to say it is not what RACER magazine reported. They put the blame squarely on Tony George. Anyway.

    I'm more familiar with F1 :). Bernie doesn't need anybody, but that's besides the point. You might be right about Indy being the only realistic venue. I just hope that isn't the case. I like the USGP at Indy, but would be just as happy with one in Vegas. Regardless F1 doesn't need the US (nor do the US need F1) and could live with a GP in Canada, Brazil and Mexico to cover the American continent. But I need F1 in the US. :(

    As for the ugly Cadillacs: I have seen pictures of them in RACER. They were ugly beyond belief. Was a few years back. The picture posted here is not half as ugly. Maybe those were not Cadillacs?
     
  17. Gilles27

    Gilles27 F1 World Champ

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    This debate is a chicken-or-the-egg issue, since there was enormous ego and greed exhibited on both sides. Tony wanted to elevate himself in the world of auto racing and was blessed to be born into the only family in America with a bargaining chip large enough to indulge this fantasy. Therein lies the difference: nobody else would have made inroads against CART without such a leverage point. Naturally you'd expect the CART owners to resist this breakaway series rather than just coronating a new King Tony. On the other hand, CART has had so many problems with its leadership that I guess it had made itself too vulnerable.

    I don't buy this as much as I used to. The United States is a nation of 300 million people, only a minor % of which are fans of any form of racing outside of NASCAR. In a world of 6 billion, where large markets like China, India and Russia have barely been tapped, the USA can't be such a priority to him. He wants us only if we want him. F1 isn't going to suck us off to create fans. Bernie has grown his empire over the last 30 years by schmoozing all-too-willing folks like Tony George to cough up ridiculously-high sanctioning fees to further line his pockets. He's a business man, plain and simple. While it makes for good press to say "We need the U.S.", I really have a hard time believing Bernie Ecclestone has ever felt he "needed" anyone.

    Agreed. Where I think the future lies in American F1 is in its naturalized citizenship. When you go to the Indy GP, it seems as if nearly half the crowd is foreign. It doesn't seem to be happening here on its own, and I think it will take the imported interests of people from other parts of the world to create a ground swell of following.
     
  18. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

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    Bernie has admitted he "needs" the US as an F1 venue. Well actually he "needs" the big money he reaps (or rapes if you will) from the promoter and the gate receipts. No one has the money, the power, or the venue at this time to put on a USGP. Except Tony George. Would Panoz pay the fee and convert Sebring? Or Road Atlanta? Besides, neither of those has good access and hotels.

    Vegas? That would be a joke and disgrace to the sport. Tried it before, no body attended, the odds makers do not like F1, and the city is not one of my favorite places so I know I personally would not attend. Cancun yes, Vegas, no way.

    From a business standpoint, anywhere within easy flights from Europe and Latin America (Brazil and Columbia) would be the best location for a successful F1 event. Reality, the majority of paying spectators would be foreign. I believe it would have to be a new purpose built facility as none of the current tracks have all the elements: airports, hotels, and the race track in general to F1 specs. Knocks out Road America, Road Atlanta, Mid-Ohio, Laguna, Barber, etc. This will sound self serving, but the best locations that would attract the most spectator $$$ would be Orlando or Miami. Second homes to many Europeans and Latins, flights, hotels, restaurants, and fun for the drivers in off time. Then there is the great weather.
     
  19. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I agree with your argument for Miami. Even before I read the end of the line I knew where you were going with that because it makes sense. Particularly since half the flights to South America go through Miami (the other half going through Dallas).

    I'm a bit puzzled about your negative feelings towards Vegas given your avatar. No personal attack, just what comes to mind (aside from gambling) when I hear that town mentioned.

    Aside from that I believe Vegas would be perfectly suited as well as it has the infrastructure and capacity to accomodate all the people and it has a brand new road course racetrack (even with F1 cars running on it as we speak). Would need to be expanded of course, but not a disgrace in my opinion at all. Personally I'd love Vegas: While I'm at the track the wife can enjoy Cirque de Soleil. Not something we can do in Indy.
     
  20. 575Mike

    575Mike Formula 3

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    Ron, you seem to really know this subject. Fascinating.

    What about the West Coast? Having been to Long Beach for the Cart race, I would love to see F1 cars in a similar venue in the U.S.
     
  21. Gilles27

    Gilles27 F1 World Champ

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    Tifosiron, you're probably right about the Miami area as a strong market. The comment about nobody else having the money, power or venue is valid up to a point. Where Don Panoz and Tony George differ (well, one of MANY ways) is that Panoz made his dimes the hard way. Tony inherited his. Panoz wouldn't go for an F1 race because he sees through Bernie's charade. Tony just seemed so eager to be a player in the business that he bit the hook. I guess it depends on your overall opinion of Tony George, since it would be easy to counter by saying "At least he invested in F1." I'm happy there's a Grand Prix only 3 hours from my home, and Indianapolis isn't really that bad of a city. Basically I've never been impressed by Tony. He's always struck me as the little rich kid who inherits his dad's company, trying to win the respect of those around him who have spent their lives working their tales off to get where they are. And when the respect doesn't come, he resorts to threats and intimidation.

    If IRL and CART are ever going to amount to anything other than a pile of memories and used equipment, they're both going to have to admit their failings, eat a mountain of crow and work together from square one. I'll be the first one in line to see a unified series.
     
  22. Whisky

    Whisky Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I disagree. Bernie needs the USA not for himself, but because the major manufacturers in F1 tell him he needs the USA. If Mercedes, BMW, Honda and Toyota didn't have a market here, they wouldn't need to be here. But on the other hand, this is how you build a niche market in China, India and Russia, the USA isn't the only country in the world with millionaires with disposable income.
    I should ask: is there anyone on here that wouldn't 'know' what a Ferrari is if they had never seen an F1 race or 'Magnum P.I.' ???
     
  23. Gilles27

    Gilles27 F1 World Champ

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    I guess that was kind of my point. Bernie the business man chases dollars anywhere and any way he can. But he's also fully aware of the tenuosness nature of the involvement of manufacturers. Look at how quickly a car company can start losing money, and the first to go will be the luxury of an F1 program. So, while he wants to keep his manufacturers happy, he still keeps his cards close to chest and won't completely fold on their behalf either.
     

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