Instructor killed at Summit Point today

Not the worst post by far.
You may not be looking hard enough (although that would be an interesting thread to read - Worst Posts on FCHAT)

I think CW is entitled to his opinion.

We don't have to agree with him, but then do so in a more civil manner.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

My first and last time at the track was around 15 years ago when a close friend of mine got tangled up with sportsracer and both cars got launched into the trees. The driver of the sportsracer died at the scene and my friend was lucky he build himself a solid roll cage as it saved his life.
I don't remember the # of the corner but it right after the long straight and I believe there is a 90 degree turn to the right after the straight. Coming out of that corner, on the left hand side, there is grass that is elevated at the edge that leads to trees, no barrier, nothing.

I have been racing for over 20 years, been to numerous tracks, some less safe than others and I can say I will never set foot on Summit point again. Racing is dangerous enough in ideal conditions.

 

Oh, THANK YOU!

CW

 

Is it just me, or has anyone noticed the right front tire of the GTO? Not only does that thing have 400 +/- HP on skinny stock tires, but the front right center tread looks a little bald for the street, let alone at speed on the track. He took a sharp left turn and lost control...is the answer in the front tires? Is it me or the picture?


http://www.your4state.com/media/lib/180/a/b/b/abb54fc5-7804-4944-9847-a259b3168c97/Original.jpg

 

IMO street tires, and the info he had run multiple sessions, indeed points to failing traction...

Lawyers will figure it all out, at this point.

When the Pontiac Firehawk series ran they would leave behind PILES of stock disc rotors, cracked and fried...

 

Peter,

What is the minimum you need to do your job? Smartycam with its minimal data?

 

I didn't notice that in the picture, that absolutely confirms what I heard about the tires being crap. No way the tech inspectors should have let him on track.... Wow.

 

I don't think depth of tread on the track is relevant.

Depth of track is needed when the road is wet. I shave my Direzzas.

Lack of tread shouldn't make a difference, IMHO, unless the tires were overheated but it doesn't look like a lot of klack (rubber derby) sticking to them.

Kai

 

I was on track when the CSL and Chevron got together, and it was a terrible accident.

There was a surface condition that precipitated both cars (separately, but closely together) going off the track drivers-left, after exiting Turn 2.

There was a dirt bank at the base of the trees that now separate a portion of the Jefferson Circuit from the short straight between T2 and T3 (Wagon Bend) on Main.

The Chevron went off on a long shallow tangent and hit the bank half way to two thirds of the distance down the straight on the left and the CSL followed it in to the same spot just a few yards behind.

No chance for the sports racer with a big sedan on top... R.I.P. John Legat

Not sure that incident was a Summit issue, but a horrible day, nonetheless.

 

Sad, but so true BigTex...The lawyers will figure it out.

I agree atomicskiracer. Where were tech guys? Pesonally, I won't have gotten in the car on a track, at speed with those tires. A lap drive around the track, no problem. At speed, no way.

 

Normal tires that are well worn are much different than shaved direzzas (which i also run)

He was allowed to do multiple hyperdrive sessions, no way that should have been allowed with tires in that condition.

 

I don't race as I have NO need for speed like my next door neighbor who was at Indy last week.

But, correct me if I am way off Kaivball, Direzzas are "real" tires made for aggresive driving on a track. Looks like the GTO had regular street tires with the center bald.

 

Yep. That's what David Murry, Jim Pace and a lot of guys use.

IF you can at least get RPM and throttle position (pretty easy on any post 2006 car), that can be enough to do a LOT!

I do it without anything other than speed, friction circle and video.

 

That is correct and are what I used on track and for autox

Dunlop Direzza ZII

 

I have to say I find the tenor of several posts to be pretty callous and off base, unless I misunderstand the facts.

Facts are (1) novice driver; (2) V8 car with perhaps over 400 hp; and (3) DE - not race; (4) instructor (volunteer I bet) killed; and (5) death was due to striking a tree with some speed.

The comments about the risks of racing have absolutely no place in this debate. I race and the rules and my risk tolerance are completely different in a race. I also race at a very high club level in a spec class and think I know a thing or 2 about the difference between DE and race. I'd wager that in my class of car and any track I could beat anyone posting here or at the very least give them a very hard, close, challenging race with no quarter given or expected and perhaps some hustle marks on both or our cars. I don't consider myself tentative and doubt you'd find a single competitor who would say I am a conservative racer. But to call this a racing incident is IMO ignorant, callous and I can see spidey's point to some extent, although I think he got a bit carried away (but someone did perish and that can bring out passion)

That said, taking to a race track at speed is a dangerous undertaking, but I suspect a novice has very little appreciation for how even a 30 mph collision (I bet that was about the speed in this case) can kill you and that it's not all just fun & games. But really - death penalty for a combination of enthusiasm and ignorance? Pretty harsh IMO and CW I think you come off pretty callous and a bit rude in your rejoinders on this point, but you are not alone so perhaps I am in the minority.

I don't know how well novices were briefed and warned about the dangers, especially of particular corners. I'd have read everyone the riot act if this turn really has trees in the runoff and I also think it is potentially inexcusable to have such a large tree close enough to be struck in an off - at the very least there should be tire walls in front of large, hard, immovable objects. I'd have to see the layout to be sure, but any track should have at least tires in front of all hard points what might take anything more than a glancing blow.

I also don't think the rally analogy holds water - a race track is intended to be vastly different, with a controlled surface, thoughtful runoff and proper barriers. Rally is a different and IMO vastly more dangerous undertaking that I doubt gets done in street cars by novices anyway.

Again, this is a horrible tragedy. But to give it a que sera is wrong - this should not have resulted in death, as novices by definition are going to do "stupid" things and should have a chance to live and learn. So while the loss of life is irreversible, the cause should be prevented or minimized if at all possible.

 

excellent post.

 

Tire looks fine to me - I don't even see any wear indicators showing and for a dry track that should not have been an issue. Not that there would have been a lot of grip from street tires, but the idea there is that you need to slow everywhere to compensate for lack of grip.

I have no idea how or why he went off, though - it's possible someone put down fluid in front of him, and even the best can get caught out by that.

 

I second that!

S

 

A few years ago, a PCA instructor was killed by side impact with a tree at Carolina Motorsports Park.

Instructor Fatality During HPDE | HPDEdriver's Speed Feed

I have driven VIR, Savannah, Palm Beach, and Sebring, and it is hard to conceive of the idea of htting a tree at any of those places. I have watched vintage racing at Summit Point, and the day ended with a life flight helicopter and a red-flagged race.

Yes, tracking a car is risky, but how hard is it to take a bush hog and create lots of run-off? And to lay pipe to cover up the drainage areas to make things level. Track owners are making a lot of money off these facilities, and they need to reinvest in safety. VIR, for example is very fast and scary, but there is a ton of runoff all over the place. There have been deaths there, but probably not car vs tree.

Also, is anyone keeping track of HPDE deaths? I can think of quite a few--Carrera GT at Fontana (2 killed), Mini Cooper out west, Integra at Chuckwalla, AZ, Corvette Z06 at a Chin Event at Road Atlanta, Boxter at PCA event at Watkins Glen.

I think we all have something to learn from each of these deaths. For instance, the death at Road Atlanta during a Chin event. The driver "walked away", but then later died from a brain bleed. He was not immediately transported after the wreck. Perhaps any wreck in which the car is not driveable afterwards should necessiate medical transport to the hospital for eval.

Regarding overheating street tires from back to back sessions--absolutely. May have been a factor here. I have done it myself and put myself four wheels off at Savannah.

Scott

 

Point taken.

Kai

 

Being a bit obsessed about this, I did a bit of surfing and on Rennlist these comments:

Sad day for track guys. They were on the Jefferson circuit, which is the small training track (one of three circuits at Summit Point). I've never liked this course, because trees are too close to the track and I've seen four cars over the years go into the tree lines, and I've been into that tree line myself with out-of-control student in 2002 (broken ribs to show for it). This time it killed the instructor. I don't know why they insist on keeping trees so close to the run-off areas, but its been a problem for years.

and

I've seen with my own eyes two crashes into the tree line at the Jefferson circuit. One was back in 1999 at T5 coming out of the corner, a fellow instructor of mine in an BMW M3 came off the corner too hot, got sideways and went into the trees mangling his car pretty good, but he walked away from it. The other time was approaching T5 on the inside during the AMG Driving Experience around 2004 where Mercedes supplied the cars. Student was in an E55 and got sideways coming off T4, tried to correct and went into the trees to the left of T5. We were right behind them and watched it unfold. Destroyed the Mercedes but the airbags saved them. In both cases had the trees not been there they would have just picked up some grass and dirt on the cars is all.

 

No idea what your problem is with CW, but lay off. The post you quoted may have been a little insensitive, but was spot on.

When I taught with NASA, I did so at Phoenix International Raceway. We may have run Firebird too a couple of times as well. I tried to keep the drivers on a short a leash as possible trying to slow them down and create good habits and break bad ones I aimed for (5/10). But the limiting factor wasn't me, it was the massive amount of traffic NASA put on the course (PIR was just over a mile long) and that slowed things down a lot.

There were several real dangers however. With all that traffic and novice drivers, there was not a lot of time for these new drivers to react to another driver's mistake, even at slower speeds and accidents happened.

One accident I saw was when a Lamborghini Diablo stuffed it in the turn 1 retaining wall. The chief instructor walked up to the driver afterwards and asked him if he knew what the mistake was that he made (which was lifting off the throttle at the asphalt transition) and the driver replied "Yes, I brought the wrong car". That superstar driver was lucky he didn't kill himself or his instructor.