In looking for any real data anywhere, I found sort of another problem -- all papers were slanted towards new design, so the attitude was always "since tin-on-tin is slightly better than gold-on-tin in our first test, always select tin-on-tin over gold-on-tin in new design - period", and they never went into more depth, or did other tests, about gold-on-tin. Amazing that tin-on-tin works at all. I love how AMP used a bunch of weasel-words and phrased it in a way which generally translates as: "our data shows that tin-on-tin doesn't work, but, if you have an application where tin-on-tin seems to be working OK, then tin-on-tin is OK"
Gold gives a less "fuzzy" signal in the automotive application tin is very "fuzzy". You guys are such silly gooses
You are still missing the point that all those spec are for gold on gold vs. tin on tin. When you install the kit you will have gold on tin at the ECU, the coolant temp sensors, the injectors, the MAP, the idle control valve, the connectors for the Evap system, etc. You do not end up with gold on gold. As far as the mating cycles go, Gold on Gold is better than tin of tin because of the surface hardness of the plating, not the clamping force. The plating wears. Higher clamping force alone would tend to make any contact plating wear faster and reduce mating cycles regardless of plating type. Higher clamping force is beneficial in reducing fretting because it reduces micro-vibration. The design of the connectors is an optimization between clamping force, required number of mating cycles, base material and plating type. Furthermore, when you look at the examples of connector corrosion on the SRI web page, every one appears to be the result of contamination, not fretting. And you wonder why this thread won't die....
Sorry but you must be reading something in another world. Clamping force is everything. The more clamping force the less fretting. :Tin on tin mating cycles is 10 at most and then problems start. This is why so many of our Ferraris are screwed up. This is also why they run so good with the CGK installed. And this is also why when Tim replaced his with tin on tin, the problems returned. If that is not enough for you then don't buy it and please stop talking about it. Again very strange why you continue to run with this when you "claim not to have any stake in this game". You post very little on anything else in 10 years but seem to make this your pet project. And John....contamination means nothing if there is none. That is why we replace the boots after each connection. Im beginning to wonder is some of you have multiple accounts here.
Huh? Where in my statement did I say anything about clamping force and fretting? We are talking about clamping forces and mating cycles. You do understand that it’s different right? I’m not sure how you’re looking at it, but you have a logical fallacy which is preventing you from understanding this whole mating cycle spec. I’ll try to break it down as simply as I can. Let’s say that it is a proven fact that the below statement is undisputed and true: A + A = C Now just because the above is true does not mean that A + B = C Can we agree that the two formulas are not equal and therefore the bottom statement maybe invalid? For some reason, you still think the since A is in the formula, it’s true no matter what B is. Not getting it? Ok, let us replace A with gold, B with tin and C with 100 mating cycles so now we have Gold + Gold = 100 mating cycles Which does not mean the same as below: Gold + Tin = 100 mating cycles What if B was wood, plastic, glass, hot dogs? Gold + wood = 100 mating cycles Gold + plastic = 100 mating cycles Gold + glass = 100 mating cycles Gold + hot dogs = 100 mating cycles Does any of the above sound true to you? If not, then why do you make an exception with tin? Do you understand why your 100 mating cycle argument is invalid now?
Thank goodness this thread is going again. My bet in the office pool is that it will exceed 1, 000 posts before Labor Day.
Yong man and young woman = maximum mating cycle Middle aged man middle aged woman = reduced mating cycle Middle aged man divorces middle aged woman and marries young woman trophy wife = increase mating cycle, but still below max. Middle aged woman is left along to age and die w/o mating cycle. Trophy wife spends all middle aged man's money, unsatisfied with sub par mating cycle, divorces middle aged man and marries young man = return to max mating cycle. Middle aged man is left alone to get old and die w/o mating cycle, or: Middle aged man discover gold kit, with new wealth find new trophy wife but can't sustain mating cycle, has heart attack and dies. Trophy wife inherits gold kit and says, WTF, I don't need no stinking mating cycle. And so go the chain of life.
Is the heart attack due to fretting corrosion? (John ...just in case you didn't catch my sarcasm...I'm kidding) I love the analogy. In fact, it makes the entire post worth while. Infact, Im checking back in! ROFLMAO
GerryD...this is a serious question...not loaded... "where did you read that gold creates a higher clamping force?" Did I misread something or Did you? My take away right or wrong....was that the HIGHER SPRING tension of the MODIFIED SPRING design is what causes the higher clamping force. IF you look in the link I supplied from TE you can see 3 designs. The ones Ferrari used that had no outside spring, the regular spring, and the modified spring (these are 3 types of JPT terminals) My proposal was to use the Tin modified spring JPT. This gives the higher clamping force....with out mixing the gold/tin metals. Can someone confirm my logic here? Is GerryD correct or am I?
I agree with this 100%! I would have no problem paying $1500 for this if I believed it was truly original and I HAD to have it to make my car run better. For example, Newman charges 3K for a differential for a TR/Boxer. He ships billet steel in and has it machined to spec. That is truly innovation and work. That is not buying X from Joe, and selling it to Y at a huge mark up. In this scenario, there is no way to call Joe and buy X.....I have to call Newman if I want my TR fixed. I have also observed in this post that nearly 100% of the defenders of the GCK seem to have a personal connection to SRI. (look at the posts saying.."lets go fishing"..."Im coming to visit"...etc) For an outside observer that was just trying to collect facts, I feel like there was this group of bullies that just couldn't believe the GCK was even a debate. (that's just how I felt) I agree that in Ferraris first attempt they used the wrong amp connector for these cars....or Luigi was having a bad day with his arthritis and performed a poor crimp...or what ever the reason. .......If your car is not running properly, then realize that all of these connections in your car could be suspect and fix it accordingly.
Guys, while I agree with the technical side of the discussion, I see no reason to crap on Dave Helms. I truly believe his intentions are good and he should, like any other business, profit from his efforts. John, Tim, I agree with 99% of what you guys have posted but I don't think ether one of you have experience with bringing products to market. For whatever it's worth, most products cost 25% or less of the sale price to produce. A huge reason for that is marketing and distribution which takes huge cuts. If you don't believe in the kit, that's fine, and I too have my doubts, but please stop attacking Dave like he is some type of scam, this I totally don't agree with.
Dave, I design and sell high end loudspeaker kits as a hobby. And that means I actually design something, cut wood, build cabinets, take endless numbers of acoustic measurements, sit at a PC designing crossover circuits, building and tested those circuits, tweaking them to get the sound I want. When I was using analog circuits I also had to design and have the circuit boards produced. I offered options. I sold the plans with parts list and bare circuit boards, and let the buyer source the parts himself. I also offered stuffed and tested circuit boards and 100% completed electronic crossovers for those who did not want to DIY the electronics. Today I use an off the shelf digital crossover and supply the plans to build the speakers and configuration files to be loaded into the crossover. Anyway, the GCK is not a "product" as such. Dave is not designing and manufacturing terminals, boots or crimpers. It is just a collection of parts designed and manufactured by someone else. We can look at the value of another product in a similar vane, Birman's 308/BB512 fuse blocks. First of all, it fixes a problem you can actually see, a melted fuse block. Second, he tells and shows you exactly what is in the kit. No mystery. Third, it is not just parts. Birdman takes the time to rivet several segments of the new fuse blocks to an anodized aluminum mounting plate and solders the required shunts between terminals for you. All you have to do is mount the new fuse block, connect the wires, and insert the fuses and go. And for this he charges a staggering $159. As for service, I ordered the Birdman kit for my 308 QV and when I got if I decided that since my fuse block were not that badly damaged I would go about repairing them in a different manner. That was motivated by wanting to maintain originality. I posted my repair on the 308 forum which Birdman saw. Since I was not going to use his kit after all he offered a refund.
John, I'm not discrediting what you do, but as you state yourself, it's a hobby. I have one patented product and I'm getting ready to launch another patented product line. Distributors expect 30-40 % discounts. While in this case Dave may have only compiled the kit contents, it certainly took work to do and no one here can judge how much time he spent or spends providing support thru the install.
John, It's guys like you that cause talented and experienced Ferrari mechanics like Rifledriver to quit posting on this board. And we are all the worse for it. We get it, you disagree. Drop it, don't buy the kit, move on. But please don't impugn the motives of a huge resource like Dave.
It's been my experience, being a Ferrari owner for going on 30 years, that if you pick up the phone and call just about any Ferrari mechanic in the country he will be happy to discuss your problem with you. When I bought my 355 this spring I had trouble getting it through CT emissions. I communicated with the independent who had serviced the car for the dealer who sold me the car. The guy didn't know me from sh*&. He was more than willing to help and even offered to get me parts, if needed, at his cost. To his credit, I understand DH is the same.
Dave, although I disagree with some of the other things you post, I agree with you 100% here. My company is an ISO9001-TS16949 certified Tier 1 supplier. I think only you and a handful of other people understand what it takes to manufacture and supply parts to an OEM assembly plant. Anyways, my purpose for posting is to say that in our aftermarket replacement performance parts business, normally if we capture 5% of the vehicle population in annual unit sales, we consider that a success. I doubt DH is getting rich off his GCK and the volume is probably very low.
Thanks for the post. I think it's important to remind ourselves that we can all agree to disagree. But, in doing so, we don't need to personally attack people.
This has been posted a few times now, and it has been better as of late....let's hope it remains civil.
Right on. But John just doesn't get it, doesn't want to get it and will keep on knocking Dave until a lawyer comes a knocking. Its just amazing how some just wont stop. Maybe John thinks he's going to change some ones mind on this kit and save their car. Isn't happening. Those that know Dave really do appreciate him and all he does. John doesn't know him and will never know him now that's for sure. Maybe John thinks that mechanics like Dave in boulder and Massimo up here in Toronto just grow on trees and really don't know much more than the guy at Master mechanic around the corner. Who knows why John keeps up with slamming Dave and his kit. Maybe it just makes him feel good. I really don't know.
I sure Dave is a heck of a guy and a very talented Ferrari mechanic. But let's not forget that the heart of Ferrari in America rests in CT and there are many highly talented Ferrari mechanics throughout the northeast USA, some of which have been at it considerable longer that DH. Your loyalty to Dave is admirable, but don't discount the other talent in my part of the woods or around the USA in general.
Yea really? And how many of them have come up with resolutions to the many problems that plague these cars?
The Internet is full of mechanics that fix electrical systems!! Argh. This is a CAR with off the shelf parts from Bosch and AMP....nothing special. All other types of cars use these exact same components. These were not designed by Ferrari. Do you understand? But since it is a Ferrari....you are paying the F tax to the extreme (and you don't even realize it). I'm sorry, but it's true.
