Indy Pocono (possible spoilers) | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Indy Pocono (possible spoilers)

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by Jack-the-lad, Aug 19, 2018.

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  1. amerikalei

    amerikalei Karting

    May 23, 2011
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    I disagree about not going back. I think Pocono is a made for IndyCar track. Is it fast and dangerous? Yes, but so is Indy, so was Fontana, and Michigan. Pocono is a monstrous driving challenge, with three unique high speed corners. Power trimmed out to qualify nearly 2mph faster than everyone, which was the right way to tie A.J.Foyt's American open wheel qualy record.

    Power and Bourdais were clearly uneasy yesterday after the accident, then they strapped in and were two of the four drivers who were on the lead lap after 500 miles. It wasn't lead swapping high downforce pack racing like the old IRL, it was a more subtle exercise, which I would argue is better at separating the great from the very good. Rossi, Power, Dixon, Bourdais. With the exception of Rossi they're veteran top level professionals at this. Rossi, based on his handling of the '18 aero kit at Indy, might just be something special. Time will tell.

    Nobody wants to see people get hurt, but I'd hate to see the big ovals like this and Indy go away because I imagine the drivers recognize the distinction they bring to what they do. Schumi wouldn't do it. That's ok, doesn't change the respect I had for his achievements and tenaciously competetive drives, although some of his less than sporting moves might have killed someone in this series. But in the end it didn't keep him safe. I don't reference fate lightly but I've always respected the calculated risk approach that racing people take.

    I also don't think the tack itself is at fault for either Wickens crash or the tragic loss of Justin Wilson. JW was the victim of a terrible fluke, and after it happened the series took measures to keep the nosecone tethered (although in an impact like yesterday's you can see it was ripped off). Wickens took a bit more risk than he should have on lap one, cold tires. RHR knew he was there but he was struggling to drive the car at racing speeds into two for the first time and thought the tow he was getting from Newgarden had pulled him sufficiently clear. In retrospect a more experienced oval racer would probably have rolled out of the throttle a fraction more, but Wickens was driving with the confidence he's earned this year, and put himself in a risky position. I don't think either driver, or the track, is to blame.

    Now that boneheaded lap 1 start from the back of the grid, that's another story (especially after Power had to exonerate himself with telemetry data). It would be interesting to hear how the pre-race drivers meeting deals with that next week.
     
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  2. GuyIncognito

    GuyIncognito Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    I think the track is at least partially to blame when the layout (plus the car rules package) forces pack racing in open wheel cars at 215-220mph. things like yesterday can and will happen. we've seen it a lot on that type of racing, whether it's Pocono or Texas, California, Indy to some extent. Sure, cars get into the fence (Franchitti's career ending crash at Houston) and drivers get hit by debris (Hinch's concussion at Indy GP) on road/street courses too, but tracks with high speed pack racing make it far more likely. I'd be fine with Pocono off the schedule.

    that said.....the crowd at the start of that race didn't seem much smaller than the crowd at the last NASCAR Cup race. so maybe IndyCar is building a following there?
     
  3. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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  4. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    I agree completely. Wilson's and Wickens' accidents could have happened at Indy as well. When it comes to "pack racing" I worry more about the shorter tracks like Texas; Brack's accident, to me, was far worse than either of the others. Wickens' accident would not have been as severe if he hadn't hit the catch fencing, so maybe the answer is to make the concrete walls higher, and perhaps to redesign the catch fencing so that cars would slide along it more readily. I will agree that Pocono needs updating and modernizing, but I rather like the alternative, three-corner layout.
     
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  5. TheMayor

    TheMayor Nine Time F1 World Champ
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  6. RWatters

    RWatters Formula 3

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    I don't like how vague they're being about the spinal injuries either.
     
  7. GuyIncognito

    GuyIncognito Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    another update from SPM:



    it is suspiciously vague. "severity of the spinal cord injury is undetermined" sounds like more than a fractured vertebrae.
     
  8. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    SPM has had it pretty rough, taking into account Hinchcliffe's injuries of a few years ago.....
     
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  9. Ney

    Ney F1 Veteran
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    Doctors may not know the extent of the damage until Robert Wickens has recovered a little and perhaps any swelling goes down. It is not uncommon for spine trauma to result in temporary paralysis due to swelling even when the spinal cord is intact. If this case, you can't say much publicly as you don't want to alarm anyone, but you also can't say he will recover because you just don't know, so no information is released or they say "indeterminate" as they have here. The ankles and arm will heal in time. His spine remains most concerning.

    I am surprised that his car did as much damage to the fence as it did, as they are designed to contain a much heavier NASCAR cars, but it seems that higher speed, not the mass is the issue. RHR was incredibly lucky to pass under the rotating tub. 1 foot lower and this might have been a very different discussion.

    Pocono - I have raced a fair amount on Pocono in various configurations over the years in both cars and bikes including using the turn 1 and turn 2 sections. The Tunnel turn has always been very uncomfortable to me. Approach is really fast, banking medium and it is bumpy. I find the whole facility to be somewhat barren and desolate for the east coast and a bit tired and behind the times. Even as a spectator, it is rugged and old. It is a huge facility and appears to suffer from a lack of investment and upkeep, likely because the amount needed for such a huge place makes substantial investment just disappear. Speeds around the whole track are high and the margin for error small. The best thing to be said about it from my point of view is that it is close to home.
     
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  10. RWatters

    RWatters Formula 3

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    The fence looks crazy old and was covered in a layer of rust. Who knows the overall condition and state of it. Given the appearance of the rest of the facility I wonder if function had been lost due to lack of maintenance over time. The rust could simply be cosmetic as well.
     
  11. TheMayor

    TheMayor Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    #36 TheMayor, Aug 21, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2018
  12. Ney

    Ney F1 Veteran
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  13. Drive550PFB

    Drive550PFB Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Mika Hakkinen was offered at least 2 seats at Indy. He told me "Heck, why do I want to go to Indy Car and get myself killed?"
     
  14. GuyIncognito

    GuyIncognito Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    which is a shame, because he would have done very well there.
     
  15. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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  16. TheMayor

    TheMayor Nine Time F1 World Champ
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  17. GuyIncognito

    GuyIncognito Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    disagree. F1 (and all other sanctioning bodies) have always been reactive to safety. F1 was antagonistic to change during Jackie Stewart's efforts to improve safety, then turned a blind eye until Imola 1994. Halo didn't come about until after Bianchi's crash. etc
     
  18. TheMayor

    TheMayor Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    #44 TheMayor, Aug 23, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
    You can always find an example. But look at the TRACKS -- that is what I am talking about. And I think F1 design and construction ideas were adapted by Indy cars, not the opposite. The exception maybe the Hans device. If I have it correct, the Hans device was developed in America but first mandated in F1 before Indy cars by a couple of years.

    And, let's just be honest here. There is NO WAY a chicken wire fence supported by immovable steel tubes stuck in the ground would be legal at any F1 race. The severity of this accident was not the speed. If he hit the hard wall it would have been no biggie. But he went up, got the wheel stuck in the fence pinned against the tube, and violently spun around at 100+ mph. The action that tore the car about was so violent he injured his spine along with breaking his feet and an arm.
     
  19. the_stig

    the_stig F1 Rookie

    Sep 19, 2005
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    Minor correction: the fractured vertebra is a compression injury resulting from crashing back to the ground not spinning around the fence pole. With no suspension left on the tub the shock of that impact went right up his spine. Lots of discussion now taking place about the angle of his helmet, the belt stretch, and the fact that he appears to be submarining.
     
  20. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    How do the fences used in F1 compare with those used on U.S. tracks?
     
  21. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    First and foremost I hope that Robert makes a full recovery and can continue racing. He's a very talented guy.

    I'm kinda surprised Indycar doesn't use the windshield/canopy on ovals. Obviously that wouldn't have prevented any injury that Robert sustained, but there's always loads of stuff flying around when they crash on ovals...A halo doesn't work (visibility in the banked corners), the canopy would work I'd think as ovals aren't done in the rain so there's no viability issues there.
     
  22. Turbopanzer

    Turbopanzer F1 World Champ

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    Do you have any access to data or information to the crash?
     
  23. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    I think the plan is to use the aeroshield starting next year. I believe its use was approved but there wasn't enough time to implement it for 2018. I wish F1 would follow suit, regardless of what Seb Vettel thinks!
     
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  24. nathandarby67

    nathandarby67 F1 Veteran
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    Feb 1, 2005
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    I was at Silverstone a few weeks ago. They had plenty of “immovable steel tubes and chicken wire”.

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