Identity vs. originality

“From nothing more than the VIN stamped parts of the original frame?”

The legal and moral answer is no.

But remember, the “car” is the chassis legally of any automobile. If the VIN is on the chassis and there is at least 51% of the original chassis remaining, with unaltered VIN numbers, you’ve got a car.

Transferring just VIN number from one chassis to another chassis is illegal.

Having said that, I have seen and inspected many a “rebody” which is actually different from a VIN swap but most people refer to this as a rebody.

It does depend on what type of car you are talking about. Body on frame design, or Unit-body/Unibody construction.

Simply “swapping” VIN numbers…is a no no! It’s happens quite often unfortunately.

But if you’ve got a complete chassis with VIN numbers on it, you’ve got yourself a car. Now just make your body and be on your way….with new coach work, pretty common practice really.

 

The GTO Engineering SWBs etc. are registered using the identity of an original Ferrari but potentially none of the parts. I'm not quite sure how that is legal anywhere but it seems to be in at least some countries.

Separately, there are more than a few Ferraris around that have been "restored" to the point that very little of the car is what originally left the Factory. Generally issues only tend to arise when there are multiple cars claiming the same identity. Even then, they are often in different countries so lawyers or legal authorities are not necessarily involved.

 

There are a few examples of Ferrari race cars that were essentially destroyed but came back to life and are recognized by the factory. Sadly for Ferrari that process is more about the almighty Euro and less about protecting the purity of the history as represented by the cars. I very recently saw such an example. History shows the car to have been destroyed in a racing accident with I believe a large fire.but now it exists again with an engine of different configuration and a transmission adapted to it that is not even a Ferrari transmission. The car has a red book with a notation about the transmission but it is eligible for all Ferrari events requiring red book certification world wide.

 

By the way. It gets done with vintage airplanes all the time. All you need is the original log book.

 

You are quite welcome.

If you’ve got “more than half of the frame” with factory chassis numbers on it, then you’ve got the car.

What chassis are we talking about if you don’t mind me asking.

 

You have to be careful that you don't end up with Grandpa's ax: the handle has been changed four times and the head two times. But it's still Grandpa's ax.

 

I was going to say probably because there were not many survivors but 25000 P52s and 20000 Spitfires were built. How many survived i wonder. Now back to Ferraris.

 

Thanks John,

I understand your reasons for not disclosing information online.

Having found and salvaged WWII aircraft from the Pacific theater, I think I have a pretty good idea of what you are talking about.

I’m also doing two restoration on cars in similar conditions, so it is totally a viable path with skills and resources to do so.

I say yes. It’s likely that it can be made into something with time, skills and resources.

 

There are basically 3 items that make up a Ferrari (note that this is not applicable to say a Bugatti)
That is the chassis, engine and body.
The backbone, heart & suit. (probably different synonyms used here with different people, but you get the idea)
The order of importance is as listed. Often as with race cars of the 1950s, 60s and later, an engine would be replaced by another engine.
Unfortunately this sometimes included a Chevy engine much to my disgust.
There is no percentage of what must remain of the original Ferarri for it to be call a certain model when restored.
The majority of early race cars are not as they came out of the factory the first time, or second time, or third time etc etc.
In fact there is a big difference in a 125 (bad choice), say a 250GT not having the original engine as to a La Ferrari with a different engine.
One it depends on what engine and who is asking. Ferrari Spa or you.
In answer to your question - NO.
Several examples have surfaced in the past, such as 6045.
Look up the history of this car and it will give you some idea relating to the question you ask.

 

So there have been numerous situations over the past 40 years that I have been interested in classic cars that have tested what a car is......

Firstly back in 1990 Ed Hubbard owned the iconic Bentley known as Old Number One and sold it to Scimitar cars. This Bentley won Le Mans in 1929 and 1930 before racing at Brooklands where it crashed and its chassis was replaced. To keep it competitive in the late 1930s the engine was then replaced with a larger 8 litre type and eventually there was few surviving parts of the original, perhaps only a gearbox casing and a couple of wheel hubs. The courtcase over the $10 mm quid sale saw experts argue that a car contains five major parts 1 - chassis, 2 - engine, 3 - body, 4 & 5 - axles and so long as three of those parts exist in the entity it can be called the entity. In this case it failed any and all tests but the judge eventually declared that Old number one had a continuous history from 1930 to 1990 AND it contained all of the surviving parts from that entity and declared the sale stood.

Much of what the old Bailey considered has been tested time and time again under the philosophy known as the Ship of Theseus paradox (or in American parlance Jefferson's axe) based on the ancient Greek myth where the aforementioned ship or axe is entirely replaced during restoration and conservation but is the sole remaining artifact. Where the water gets muddied is when you have cars such as a Jaguar D-Type which contains separate chassis and frame or in some American states where cars can be titled by their engine number. Here you end up with two or more cars that have some legal claim to that entity. Drilling down any deeper you end up with a lot of areas of highly personal judgement which only a buyer can conclude and put their money where their mouth is!

 

George Washington's axe.
He used it to cut down a cherry tree.
When confronted about the felled tree- as the story goes- replied, 'I cannot tell a lie", and proceeded to self-indict.
Or so we're told.

Come on, Tim- you mean to tell me you didn't learn that in History class in New Zealand(!)?

 

Was ripping through a post before work so no time to research. Good point though. Lol

 

Pretty much. At least 5 Jaguar D-Types existed in two parts since it was easier to rebuild around a new monococque or chassis back when they had no value and a decade or more later both would be sold separately and rebuilt as two. Elsewhere various restoration shops spent decades in the pre internet days rebuilding clapped out pre war cars on brand new chassis and then rebuilding the chassis and voila, double the payday. Most of these cars have been restored in later years with the buyer buying both examples and using the remains from both cars which then gives you a genuine, original for show and display and a fake you can race/ rally the pants off. That doesn't even cover the situations where the sole remains are one part of the car such as the various early LSR cars, think Fiat "Beast of Turin" or Darracq 150HP that were both restored around a engine and in the case of the Fiat, part chassis. Sure its not original but it ensures a car exists so perhaps fair.

I would argue its all naval gazing unless it gets sold and then it either gets accurately described or becomes a case of fraud. To that end the Ferrari 250TR offered by Bonhams in 2000 and withdrawn before the sale or the Aston Martin DP212 offered by Brooks some years earlier. RM offered the Ferrari 246S at RM Maranello but withdrew it after complaints it was on a replica chassis after a fire in period and withdrew the Jaguar D-Type from Scottsdale in 2016 after plenty pointed out it was rebuilt around a new tub in 1992 and while its believed the original tub ceased to exist in 1956 it isn't guaranteed. But even these cars (excepting the 250TR and DP212 which turned out to be complete replicas built around a DB4 and 250GT Coupe) they are also important examples of these cars. Its just that they aren't as pure as other entities and for some people that makes them value-less, others makes them important and yet more would consider them priceless.