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How will the art market meltdown affect collector Ferrari cars?

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by Platini 289, Feb 7, 2016.

  1. Cigarzman

    Cigarzman F1 Veteran
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    #26 Cigarzman, Feb 15, 2016
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  2. Bradwilliams

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    #27 Bradwilliams, Feb 15, 2016
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    Truer words. I'm going to buy a popcorn machine. This stuff is way more fun to watch than to engage in. Just have to take it easy on the butter
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  3. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    well if you can't actually get short a market, and you don't plan on buying something, then what is the point of the OP? if platini owns neither art nor cars then is he just bored?
     
  4. paulchua

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    Mr. Potato Head,

    It's pretty simple actually..all you need to do to understand the consternation is pick any other subject where you don't have a 'stake' in.

    See, I don't own Pokemon cards, I don't plan to buy Pokemon cards today, and I don't ever plan to buy Pokemon cards in the future.

    That's why I don't spend my time worrying too much if Pokemon cards are too expensive, let alone spend time on Pokemon enthusiasts forums wishing all of them financial ruin and telling them cards are overvalued.

    I don't know, maybe you do?
     
  5. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    I loved Mr potato head when I was a kid. are the originals worth anything these days or are they also trading down with the art market?

    to be fair platini cld just be dazed and confused with everything going on at FIFA the past year. or maybe I have it - fifa caused the art and cars bubbles to burst. or maybe was it the pokemon bubble that caused oil to implode? I cant keep it straight.
     
  6. paulchua

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    #31 paulchua, Feb 15, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2016
    Haha ttforcefed, definitely the Pokemon Bubble!!

    **
    To Potato/BW/SD:

    You guys are engaging in intellectual dishonesty (worst of all with yourselves) I've said time and again, NOBODY, I repeat, NOBODY says it is impossible that we could be in a bubble; heck - I think we could be.

    That's not the POINT!

    It was never "that' point of view, it *is*, however, the sentiment of wishing a financial loss on fellow members here, furthermore with no personal reason (say a short) for wishing that.

    That sirs is the definition of crass.

    I don't like Jackson Pollock, I think the art is rubbish, but would NEVER go to a Jackson Pollock enthusiast meet and say the art is bound for a huge correction, I just wouldn't! It's not classy. Especially if many of my dear friends are Pollock Enthusiasts.

    For SD/BW, it can't even be said to be an honest faux pas, because even though multiple members have expressed their disdain, the behavior continues. So what is there left to be said? Othern then to conclude then you have a trio of envious, bitter, kibitzers that seek to grief members here.

    Will you now please quit with the "I'm just honestly talking about bubbles" nonsense and either "put up or shut up?" You can buy very nice 430, 458s, 612s that are following the standard depreciation curve, or where you three seriously planning on getting a 308 GT4 and are pissed now? What is it? That is why we are asking *specifics* if you are pissed of a 'bubble' what did it PRICE YOU OUT OF?

    I've asked BW/SD like at least 10 times between the two of them...

    just the sounds of crickets, what say you Potato Man?
     
  7. Zaius

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    Whoever said that was art in the first place?
     
  8. paulchua

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    Welcome Plantini!

    Are you approaching this from an investing standpoint? If so I am ignorant in these matters and cannot help you. However, I certainly wish you the best, and unlike other members here hope you find success in your endeavours.

    From an enthusiast standpoint, buy what car *really* speaks to you and enjoy to your hearts content, assume it will depreciate and you will never be disappointed.

    Cheers
     
  9. Camlet1

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    Absolutely this. Tom is a pro and thinks 98% of buyers are schmucks led by their dicks and inflated self-importance. He's right. He's made a very nice living taking the piss. The market is going down 20%? Yeah sure, for crap. He knows what's what, he also knows when a buyer or seller is a player. Personally I prefer to deal with guys like Joe Macari or Louis Leven, guys who are passionate about the cars and the deal. Tom and his clan are just into the deal. But can't knock them, they are pros.
     
  10. Platini 289

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    Thanks for your post. I take your point and agree with what you say, to a large degree. Buy the best and 10 year time frame very wise. IMHO one should only have skin in the game for enjoyment and not investment. Only a very select few models will outrun inflation over the long term. Let's not for get about acquisition and disposal costs, not to mention the obvious outlay along the way. For purposes of clarification I do not post under any other name on this forum. Thanks chaps.

    PS. There's a few touchy old hands on this forum, let's chill and enjoy the cars. Don't like the term "riff raff" Peace.....
     
  11. lifesizepotato

    Sep 14, 2015
    4
    Ah, Paul's old reliable "crickets" line, accompanied with the usual ttforcefed high fiving. Didn't see that coming.

    There are lots of reasons one could be following the market and have no actual stake in it, and it's irrelevant. It's not for you to decide, or decree, that that person's input is invalid because of whatever malicious motives you want to ascribe to them. Rather than engage with anyone's arguments regarding the strength of the market anymore (unless it's "up up up!", which of course is totally cool and doesn't require substantiation), both of you guys jump to personal insinuations that anyone saying something negative about the bubble is just some troll who has no vested interest one way or the other. Nobody has to prove anything to either of you.

    As I said, I've followed this forum and the market for a couple years and I found it to be at its most educational when there was a balance of viewpoints and they were discussed earnestly, rather than you two trying to snuff dissenting viewpoints with a lame "gotcha." I could come up with all sorts of implications about your "lacking in moral character," as you've described it elsewhere, for this recent behavior, but it's clearly counterproductive and lizard brain ad hominem nonsense.

    Try debating SuperDave's (or anyone else who questions the sustainability of peak pricing) actual arguments sometime instead of slapping each other on the back with the boring Pokemon analogy and taking negative opinions about the market so darn personally. Half of the stuff you're accusing people of is completely fabricated projection, anyway.

    Anyway, I've said what I need to say. I'll go back to lurking again instead of stirring up pointless drama. All you'll get out of me on this topic is crickets now, Paul, so congratulate yourself with forcefed over some beers.

    And for what it's worth, I have a Testarossa that I bought in 2012. I hope that allows me to have an opinion - my application is in the mail.
     
  12. msn

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    Platini 289 this is what 625 buys you.
    It has covered 26,000 miles 7 owners Condition mechanically is A1 although bag tanks are due (was a shame these were not done…) and cosmetically it has had paintwork condition let down only by a non-original lower lip spoiler.
    These cars have to be priced competitively. That's a lot mileage for a F40, lot of owners and the rest speaks for itself. The best always costs but are the better proposition.
     
  13. Platini 289

    Platini 289 Karting

    Sep 21, 2015
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    The paradox of collector cars (modern and older cars) is that if you own them and want to avoid depreciation, you cannot use them as designed, i.e. to drive them. Let's take the aforementioned Mark Donaldson Ferrari F40 as a yard stick. Let’s say for every 10,000 miles the car has depreciated £100,000. Let’s assume ownership for 10 years, allowing 1,000 miles per annum. That’s pricey smiles per mile in anyone’s book. Are you really telling me this can be regarded as an “investment”? That’s before all other related costs that I don’t need to remind you of.
    Let’s assume we are talking of a potential owner with <£10M Assets , i.e. you still need to be careful financially…
    Who makes the smarter investment – they guy who buys the above F40, in the hope of getting a return of his money, or the guy who buys say an F430 or 458, and drives the hell out of it for 10 years. With the unallocated funds he can invest elsewhere in a more conventional spread of investments. Are you really telling me an F40 drives better than an F458? come on…..
    Who is the bigger car fan? The F40 owner or the 430 / 458 owner?
    Or how about the guy who has the funds to buy an F40, but having the responsibility of ownership doesn’t sit comfortably with him. So he goes to events worldwide to enjoy other people’s cars being driven and shown.
    Laughable to say you need to have skin in the game to have an educated or worthy opinion.
    I have clients that could buy and sell my Ferrari-owning clients – don’t be naïve and blinkered about what it takes to make a judgement call, particularly at this point in the cycle…..
     
  14. Platini 289

    Platini 289 Karting

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    Thanks MSN, good man
     
  15. paulchua

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    #40 paulchua, Feb 16, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2016

    Potato Man,

    I"m going to assume with all of your four posts, you lack historical context. So I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you're trying to be "Lisa" defending Gary & Wyatt from evil Chett...

    What do you think we've been trying to do? When confronted with good faith challenges, it has been responded with silence, or worse attempts to ban or outright lies.

    I guess that's why I said multiple times. it's totally okay to talk about bubbles

    Potato man, "Both of you?" Really? try 20+ (here is but a sample):

    12 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 1819 20

    Let me know if you want more members besides these 20? There is actually much more where these came from...

    Yes, when people ask questions in a debate/forum, the proper thing to do is respond to back up your points. You seem to agree with this?

    Wait, this is where your argument goes off track, you say there can be many reasons that one could be following the market and have no stake in it...and in the same breath say the proper thing to do is engage differing opinions, I AGREE! You seem to want it both ways. You want somebody to present a viewpoint, yet when *engaged* and asked what the *is* that said reason, have the luxury of not responding, and then calling out the people that ask that question?

    Which is it?

    You seem to be confused, it is not *us* that have ceased to engage, it is Super_Dave, we've asked many point blank questions, the response was null. You criticize me by saying, I refuse to engage, ironically...it is Super_Dave *WON'T* reply when confronted. That's the whole point!

    Many people, not just me have asked Super_Dave to *do* just that: engage! Not a drive-by snarky comment and then run. Ask yourself this, why is it *just* SuperDave that has been the target? There is a multitude of folks here that say we could be in a bubble (including me!)

    I guess that's why Super_Dave has asked folks to be banned for disagreeing (talk about snuffing dissenting viewponits)? I've never asked Super_Dave to be banned, on the contrary, I've always said he should never be banned, he's too much entertainment.


    So, you call out the people trying to point out they *VERY* folks that stir up pointless drama, talk about friendly fire.

    "ttforcefed" and I said the proper thing to do is to congratulate you, but as a fan of SuperDave, let us switch gears: Since you take a liking to the SD method of conversing, let me extend an olive branch and follow his MO:

    Did you Finance your TR? You know that might not be a smart move in this bubble, you might consider selling it, because you can buy it for half what it's worth very soon. By the way, do you put miles on it? You know you should, I know, I have two graduate degrees from Ivy League schools, plus my billionaire friends advise me so. Furthermore, I am in the top half of the 1% in this country, so I have a special understanding of these things. I am very knowledgeable about bubbles as well. So you should keep the TR, except when you don't. Am I making sense? I hope so. Remember, I come from a very poor family, but not really, I am self-made Are you?, if so - how was that possible? Was your dad Warren buffet? Am I still making sense? No? Really? Want a ride in my McLaren? I bought it from winning the lottery. But just because *I* won the lottery, I'm not like other lottery winners, because they are all poseurs
     
  16. Super_Dave

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    #41 Super_Dave, Feb 16, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2016
    ...
     
  17. paulchua

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    Thanks for proving my point yet again...
     
  18. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    potato - why do you care so much given your short tenure here? it's surprising that you chose this thread to contribute your first posts. why not introduce yourself in the testarossa section? or have you been here for a longer time under a different name?
     
  19. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    potato congrats on the testarossa - awesome car
     
  20. paulchua

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    #45 paulchua, Feb 16, 2016
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    Well said Platini, I agree! :)


    Another great point, completely agree!

    I know you didn't receive the most stellar of responses, please let me provide context, there has been a cohort here that not only say there is a bubble (we all agree this is fine) - but actually (wish/hope/want one) for *no* other reason other then to see people here lose equity. That is what is meant when people mention 'no stake' in the game yet opine negatively. You may have been unfairly lumped into this group, I personally think you are legitimately asking honest questions.

    There can be lots of folks that wish the market goes down so they can obtain the Ferrari they love at a more attractive price point; this is a very valid position. Yet when asked time and again, what Ferrari did these folks get priced out of...yes (I'll use the word phrase Potato man) - the sound of crickets is the only thing we hear, hence the silly Pokemon analogies...Why care about Pokemon prices, if one is not involved? That's not a 'gotcha', it's a valid question.

    Again, I wish you every success on your endeavours, whether you buy a car now or later; congratulations, and hope fortune smiles down on you in either scenario.

    Cheers
     
  21. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    #46 ttforcefed, Feb 16, 2016
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  22. Jamie H

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    have I been missing the fun??? Late to the party again...
     
  23. paulchua

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    Haha! You Pick em.'

    Which one is it?
    1) Super_Dave got one of his friends to defend him since he has a hard time doing it himself
    2) Potato Man is Super_Dave's sock puppet
    3) Super_Dave pulled the wool over another member's eyes; it's been his MO since the start, act arrogant and all knowing; when called out - play the victim. Some people only see the latter, so they assume he is bullied, not realizing his history of trolling. (this is my bet)

    Either way, the Super_Dave legend continues...which is cool. Every court needs their Jesters.
     
  24. Jamie H

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    #49 Jamie H, Feb 17, 2016
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    Thanks for the Reader's Digest version.

    ..Anxiously waiting for the sock puppets
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  25. msn

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    #50 msn, Feb 18, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Platini289 HR Owen have sold their 33klm 288 GTO yesterday for 2.2 million gbp, or 3.2 USD the car is going to a large collection of ferraris in Europe. Again an educated mature buyer
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