How will history judge and value the F12 vs. 812 super fast?

F12 will 'survive' better, but the 812 will come around and stomp the f12, the 812 is a car that isn't easy on the eye in the beginning but to me, it's starting to look better, but not as elegant as an F12.

In the future, if someone makes a nice piece on Pininfarina and if the 812 is really more 'tame' to drive (following the reactions of the journos to it), it will be hard for the f12 not to win the battle.

740 is plenty of fast for the next 10 years, if one wants more power, just upgrade to the 812 internals and an exhaust/tune and voilá, similar power, with a more extreme experience of driving.

IDK, I can't see the 812 trumping the F12 in the 5-15 age range.

 

Previously I posted two profile pictures of the yellow F12B and 812 in order that we can see better the design diferences between the two cars. In the meantime I wondered what the car would look if Flavio Manzoni had decided that the 812 was a simple rear redesign of the F12B or alternatively a complete redesign with the rear of the F12B.

 

VERY interesting ... both cars you've imagined are better looking than the 812, which looks like an elephant sat on a it. Le CorViper

 

Having had two wonderful F12s and now an 812, I can tell you that the upgrade to an 812 is worth it. The 812 is faster, sounds as good or better, handles better, has a better interior and has a smoother revving and more addictive v12 with trick rear steering.

Before I picked up the 812, I went through the same reasoning that most folks are discussing on this thread. I went to the Ferrari Sport school and spent some time in the 812, which convinced me to consider it further. With my f12, I always felt like I was going to die, and there was a real chance that I was if not careful. The 812 gives you the same level of exhilaration but allows you to drive it hard with less fear of dying hahahahahah. You can easily track the heck out of the 812 and perform extremely well. The F12 was very difficult to extract all of the performance out of it.


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I agree wholeheartedly having had both, the F12 and the 812. From day one I felt a lot more in control of the 812 as opposed to the F12 that I had for over two years. I felt like F12 was in control of me and I better hold on for dear life.


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I think in a few years, the fact that the F12 says Pinin on the side, will not be that important. Maybe people will rather consider that both cars are Manzoni designs and thus this will be what is considered style wise.

I think over time, the better and more engaging performance and drive of the 812 will win out, so down the line, I see the 812 ending up being the more coveted. Am I right? I have no idea.

 

I agree. I think a lot of the next gen of buyers will care more about how the car looks rather than who designed it.

i saw an f12 parked next to an 812 recently and the former looked decidedly more dated (or perhaps ‘classic’). Design is of course subjective and I’m biased but I think the 812 looks a lot more modern, aggressive and ultimately better.

I also love how stable and safe the 812 feels, even in the wet.

 

Determining now how will history judge and value the F12 vs the 812 is an exercise of futurology that is highly influenced by each one personal preferences.
However, one can use the example of the 550M and 575M as a case study by analyzing their present market situation. The 550M was launched in 1996, 23 years ago, and the 575M, a substantial revision of the former in both style and mechanics, was launched 6 years later in 2002, 17 years ago. Because the 575M is more modern. mechanically more sound (has already adaptable suspension) and has more power than the 550 M, we would be inclined to think that it is the more desirable car. In fact it isn't, at least in Europe, and by looking at Mobile.de we see there are today fifty five 550M and forty five 575Ms for sale. The price range is very similar for both models and for the standard cars starting at around 68 k Euro and going up to a maximum around 150 K Euros.

In 2035 the F12 Berlinetta will be 23 years old and the 812 18 years old. Then the engine, the mechanics and all the electronics that today make the 812 one of the best and most performant existing road super GT cars will be completely outdated. The Ferrari road super GT model of 2035 will be certainly a very different car from the ones we know today and it will outperform the 812 in every aspect and with a large margin. When these times arrive the market will have been left with just two "ancient" Ferraris super GTs, the F12 Berlinetta and the 812 Superfast, that are the representatives of the end of the NA V12s era. (The F12 TDF isn't mentioned because is a limited edition).
Without trying to make any kind of futurology I'm inclined to believe that in 2035 the F12 and the 812 market situation could be somehow similar to the one that exists today with the 550M and the 575M. Despite the 812 being a different car from the F12 and not just a substantial revision of the later, what will make one model more desirable than the other in the future are things like the aesthetics and the driving experience preferences. In two decades from now the fact that one model is the last Ferrari wearing the Pininfarina badges and the other hasn't any could have some influence on the desirability of one of the cars but that's something I'm not able to quantify.

 

Opposite 180 degree opinion. One is a beautiful PF design the other another Manzoni body kit. The F12 already has it's place confirmed. One is LDM and the other Marchionne. One made when Ferrari limited production and the other when shareholder profit and mass production changed Ferrari's mystique. History will only enhance what we already know. Two great NA V12 cars but one with a signature and the personality to go with it.

 

Hey now, I rather like our “Manzoni” 812!

I miss the F12, too, which I find equally beautiful- maybe in a more classic way. The 812 is a legitimate step forward dynamically. No idea how that will affect long-term residuals which are generally based on production numbers more than anything else.

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When all you can buy in 10 years time are EV's, the F12 and 812SF will always be equally sought after IMO. Digital vs analog watches, being "watched" vs being anonymous etc etc. I know what I would want even if I was a Gen Z, Millenial

 

Love them both equally as much. I have had 2 F12s and now 1 812.


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I don't agree on this one Mario. I think the 575 was not greeted warmly by anyone- the drive was too soft and required the 575 M and even after that owners still favored the 550 for its driving dynamics. Today, no one thinks the F12 drives better than the 812. That is a simple objective reality.

Looks are a different thing and you could say the 812 is like the 575 in that its a more busy/ aggressive successor. but there too, I think the 575 is too similar to the 550, so the differences are apparent. I think the 812 does look sufficiently like a different car- whereas the F12 (for me at least) channels the profile of the 275; the 812 channels that of the 365 GTB/4 (aka Daytona).

I love Pininfarina design, but I don't think it will matter one iota to the future for most. There will be a small passionate minority of people who cry about the good days of Pininfarina design, but I think this will be more of a curiosity for most Ferraristi. For example, how many lament Ferrari's loss of independence when discussing the cars from the 1970s?

My prediction for the future is the 812 will be seen exactly as it is the successor for the F12 and it will be valued a little bit more than the F12. Also, I think they will have ended up making less 812 SF vs F12b if that means anything. Also also, the 812 could be seen as the last non GPF V12- that might mean something- but probably not much..

 

Jerry here on Ferrarichat and in other forums there are several old posts discussing the subject of the 550M vs the 575M. By reading some of them my impression is that there isn’t a consensus about which car is superior and as always, passion prevails making a majority defend that the model they own or like more is the best. On my previous post I took the example of the 550M vs 575M just for one reason. They were both the Ferraris super GTs of two decades ago and that’s what the F12 and the 812 will be in 2035 and IMO nothing else. Because final production numbers won't be so different between the F12 and the 812, I continuo thinking that in 2035 the aesthetics and the driving experience of each car will be the main factors to differentiate them. Then the desirability of one car or the other by the buyers I'm convinced that will be just a matter of personal preference.

 

The thing that is distorting the 550/575 comparison is that the 550 has a manual gearbox IMHO - when the 575 was released the F1 gearbox was the up-to-date technology but now that both cars are outdated the enhanced performance is overshadowed by the classic feel of the manual gearbox.
There is no such differentiation between the F12 and 812, so that the 812 may have the advantage like a 512 TR has the advantage over a testarossa (the 512M is very rare, and also ugly to most eyes, so its valuation is not clear).

 

No real disagreement on this Mario. But regarding the 575 v 550, I distinctly remember (and my memory could simply be wrong!) it was as if every review said- keep your 550- they made this car too soft. And owners I knew said the same thing. I knew a few people who actually sold their 575s to get back into a 550. It wasn't just the gearbox, it was that they shifted the nature of the car. I think today we see 550 as a more in demand car than 575- but there is no doubt the gearbox is a big factor- like @LVP488 points out.

Im not so sure about production numbers. It appears the 812 SF may be in production for some time more, but I get the feeling they will be making almost only 812 GTS going forward. So that will be a wrinkle. My guess is by the time we're done, we will have seen 5 years production for F12b vs about 2.5 years 812 SF and about 2.5 years 812 GTS. I think the spider likely is pulling people who would not have been interested in the coupe- so I do think if we are looking at numbers in 15 years we will see less super fast vs berlinetta. However, I do agree with you I think most will look at the looks and the driving experience. I think the 512 TR/M is another great point by @LVP488.

This is all fun speculation, I guess we'll know when we get there- I would very much enjoy being able to buy you a glass of wine or beer while we have a laugh to see what happened.

 

I agree with you that there isn’t a differentiation between the F12 and the 812 in terms of gearbox like the one that exists between the 550M and the 575M.
I don't agree when you suggest that in two decades or so the 812 will have a market advantage over the F12 like we see now the 512TR having over the original Testarossa. The market advantage the 512 TR is experimenting over the original Testarossa has very little to do with the fact that the former is a more recent and advanced model. Rarity is the factor that differentiates the price difference between these two models. The original Testarossa was a volume-production Ferrari with 7177 cars made and the 512TR had only 2280 cars made which is one third. Only 501 cars were made of the much more rare 512M and that’s why the selling prices of this model are much higher than the ones of the previous two. When production of the 812 will stop the total number of cars made I presume won’t be so different from the number of F12s already produced. Therefore the 812 won’t have a rarity advantage over the F12 like the one that exists between the 512TR and the original Testarossa.

 

Jerry I accept with immense pleasure your invitation and I very much look forward having that drink with you in 2035. That will be a great incentive for both of us to still be around here by then.

 

I think the 812 will have a market advantage of being the technically superior and faster/ better driving car. That is beyond debate. However, most people think the F12b is a better looking car. I think the F12b is a more elegant look, the 812 more aggressive. I appreciate both about equally. I don't know how much of a premium there will be for the 812, but I think there will be one.

The numbers are interesting for the Testrarossas. Indeed, they made the Testarossa from 1984-1992. And then the 512TR made from 2 years, and then the M for 1 year. This is actually not so far off the template that I am mentioning now for the F12b vs 812. As they soak up the demand with the initial car, they have to do other variants to keep it interesting. The world was changing back then and the market was demanding a return to the classic front engine V12. Just as now the market is changing away from the front engine V12- it wants mid engine in this price range. You see they made the Testarossa for 7 years and then they made many less cars for the next 2 years and then less for the final year. They seem to be doing something similar here. 5 years production for the F12b, then 2.5 years for 812 SF and then another 2.5 years for the GTS to bring in the spider clients. Thus, less production time = less production numbers. Just like with the Testarossa. {to be fair, the 2.5 years is my guess, but I think regulations and market realities will come together to at least unofficially end or greatly reduce SF production soon- in favor of the GTS}

So, while I have no way to know, I think the actual production time will be significantly less for 812 SF v F12b. I suppose it could be as much as 50% less time, and thus, one could think 50% less production numbers. My wild guess is the difference won't be quite so bit. Maybe it ends up being 30%. And then you will have the fact the 812 Superfast is the last model to be non GPF and from factory has the best sound (aside from TDF).

In the end, I think the lower production numbers + better performance and driving experience (including sound) will end up giving the 812 SF a bit of a premium over the F12b.

Your drink awaits you in 15 years time

 

I wish they had the "high 5" emoji here !

 

F12 EU production, from which we can deduce US production based on typical EU/US allocations:
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Hoping at least one of you still happily owns the aforementioned cars at the meet up. If I'm still kicking in 2035 I know which car will still be with me!

 

Great looking 812. What color is that?

 

The more raw, edgy, likely to kill you car should be valued higher long term.