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How should recreations (rebodies) be handled in Vintage?

Discussion in 'Recreations & Non-Period Rebodies' started by yale, Apr 4, 2012.

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How should recreations (rebodies) be handled in Vintage?

  1. As is, recreation discussion happens in vintage as what the Ferrari once was (250 GTE).

  2. Create a subforum under vintage to discuss all recreations and rebodies (replicas go to Off Topic).

  3. Create a subforum under Ferrari Models for all recreations and rebodies (250 GTE/GTO to 308/288 GTO)

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Ney

    Ney F1 Veteran
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    I think care needs to be taken relative to the term Rebody and lumping it in with Recreation lest you create a moderators nightmare. Many Vintage cars have been rebodied during their lives, some back to original configuration. Are those now rebodies or original? Do "factory" rebodies that were changed to a different style go in the rebody forum or main vintage? Does 0808 fall under main vintage or rebody as it is on it's third set of bodywork? 5899 LM had a Porsche 908 body for a while and has been changed back, but it is not the original body. A Ferrari "original" body often never saw the inside of the Ferrari works until it was done and the complete car came back.

    While I am not fond of the GTE to GTO or GT to '58 Testa Rossa change, they remain Ferraris, just not original. Discuss them in the main section and sort out what they are. Banishing them to a subforum may allow some members to feel better about the section, but to what end?

    One thing that seems to have been overlooked in much of the rebody/recreation discussion is that many of the cars that were bodied to be something that they were not originally occurred due to a crash. They were often totalled street cars. To those decrying the practice of altering the "original" car, would it have been better to get rid of the whole car or do what happened, use the chassis as the basis for something else? It was, and may still be cost prohibitive to build them back to their original configuration.

    I am not trying to make this more difficult, but urge caution placing this site the the position of arbitrator of "real", "rebody" or "recreation" cars. You are potentially sending yourself down the same path as Ferrari Classiche with the same good and bad effects and we all know how that turned out at times.

    ....and while I am on my soapbox....tongascrew...could we just put the "just one man's opinion tongascrew" line in your signature line that I can turn off and not in the text of each and every thread? It just gets tedious.....I know it's your opinion....I knew it 1400 posts ago, I knew it 500 posts ago, I knew it 100 posts ago, I knew it last post and I still know it.....:)
     
  2. ALPINE6SPD

    ALPINE6SPD Formula Junior

    Nov 18, 2006
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    +1
    I have not been on the forum a long time but I would agree that whatever cleans up the clutter best is the way to go. If you cant make a seperate section for them then having one thread always makes sense. I just wonder how if that is enough in the long run? Like I said I am by far no expert here and have not been a posting member long but I figured I would give my opinion anyways.
     
  3. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    #53 PSk, Apr 10, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2012
    We have proved over and over again that this view is NOT true in regards to replicas. Yes it did happen but perfectly good cars are now being converted into replicas. Period rebodies occurred for this "crashed" reason, but a period rebody should not be part of this discussion and 100% should remain in the Vintage section IMO.

    And also Ney, if somebody has attempted to return a car to it's previous form then that car should also not be considered a replica and be segregated to the "hall of shame section". Just about all old car restorations require various amounts of body replacement work, in a case where (for example) somebody purchased a 250 GTO replica and wanted to recreate the orginal 250 Lusso then a new body would have to be made. In this case the owner is restoring the car and unfortunately it requires a new body. This will affect its marketability for the people that only think of old cars as investments, and yep it is part of this particular cars story.

    Anyway I'm trying hard to stay out of these threads. I can see that nothing can be done to stop this "I can't have the real thing, so I will f**k a real car so at least I can pretend" attitude.
    Pete
    ps: If I ever am able to purchase a 250GT 2+2, I will enjoy nothing more than drifting up the inside of one of these replicas as I execute the perfect pass (on a race track) with my right hand out the window giving the Le Mans (film) salute ... :D
     
  4. Ney

    Ney F1 Veteran
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    Agreed, hence my concern with the term "rebody" being lumped in with "replica" or "recreation".

    I hope you do...:)
     
  5. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    I was just thinking, although all 3 options about equal support, a high 67% want to at least do something different.
     
  6. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

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    Thanks for the suggestion. I also have gotten tired of this bit and am glad to drop it. On the subject of "arbitrator" rarely is a decision unanimous or all encompasing. In my post #780 in order to keep things simple I have suggested just two cetegories, Replica and Reproduction. Each allows for a wide range of non original vehicles but draw a distinct difference between each. My intent is that each category be flexable enough to incompass most possible applications. For example your "rebody" would be part of the "Replica" category. The exception would be a car like 0147, 0262 or the recent efforts with 002 which would be considered as "generally accepted as original". Another category could be created for these but I wouldn't recommend it. Comments? tongascrew
     
  7. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

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    #57 tongascrew, Apr 11, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2012
    Please read post 780. The "Replica" category includes your RBFC. tongascrew
     
  8. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

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    Please note "rebody" is part of the Replica category not Recreation. tongascrew
     
  9. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
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    you are way out of line.
     
  10. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

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    Each to his own. However the comments regarding "return to it's previous form" might be brought up with Napolis. His work deserves far better and a total disregard on your part. Regarding you "passing" comment eather you have a very long right arm or you need to find one of the few RHD 250 2+2s. Best to just keep both hands on the wheel. tongascrew
     
  11. GTE

    GTE F1 Veteran

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    This has to be, by far, the dumbest, most ignorant post I have ever read in my almost 8 years on Ferrarichat.
     
  12. Ney

    Ney F1 Veteran
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    :)

    A rebody is not always a replica...

    Not sure who this is directed at as I have not said anything that could be construed as disregarding what JG has done in restoring his cars...Perhaps to PSk...
     
  13. GTE

    GTE F1 Veteran

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    Indeed. I have no problem in acknowledging the 330 Drogo s/n 7979GT as a genuine Ferrari, even though it is rebodied (and b*tt ugly...)
     
  14. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

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    Thanks Ed for letting this subject have a full discussion. I really never thought there would be so much interest and opinions.There will always be considerable opposition to this subject being included in the Vintage forum. It might be worth considering a forum of its own. I don't follow any of the other forums but some may have the same issues as the Vintage forum has. Incase you missed post 780 in the "Fake/Replica....." thread, I recommended just two categories one of which is "Replica" which would include most rebodies. There would need to be exceptioms like 0147,0262 and 002 as examples of "generally accepted original" restorations The "Replica" category is basicly inclusive of reproductions built entirely with Ferrari parts or "custom built" reproduction parts of the original such as bodies. All the rest would be in the "Reproduction" category.My reproduction 250 Californuia would fit here.There is more in this thread regarding doccumentation which I can elaborate on if you wish. Thanks again for your interest. tongascrew
     
  15. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    my thoughts...

    period rebodies (coach builders) with unique design not trying to fake something it isn't belong in Vintage.

    rebodies that use Ferrari chasis, engine, and/or other parts (i.e. GTE) can go in a new subforum (or single thread as Jim suggests).

    replicas that use nothing or very little original will go in Off Topic General Automotive like they do now.
     
  16. GTE

    GTE F1 Veteran

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    Yes. A perfectly logical categorization.
     
  17. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    #67 PSk, Apr 11, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2012
    Jim knows that I consider his (teams) work absolutely first class and NONE of his cars are replicas or rebodies IMO, they are extensive and correct restorations. As I've said before, some restorations to an original form require more work than others, but that does not make the resulting car a rebody or replica. Otherwise I don't actually understand what you are trying to say with your reply that I've quoted above, sorry.
    I live in Australia :).

    Pete
     
  18. Smiles

    Smiles Moderator
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    This.

    The extraordinary value of a Vintage Ferrari is in its engine first, and a gorgeous body second. If it doesn't have the engine, it's a crappy replica. If it does have that Columbo engine and a reasonable aluminum hand built body, it's a rebodied chassis.

    I own and drive a 330 2+2. And I have no problem with rebodied Ferraris.
     
  19. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    I think this is logical and the way to go.
     
  20. The Red Baron

    The Red Baron Formula Junior

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    cant agree with the above. Of the first Ferrari's numbered below 1000, a majority of the race cars have been re-bodied. In some cases by the factory and other times by the Carrozzaria that originally made the car. On other occasions by an entirely different party. Road cars also have been re-bodied to a lessor extent, but with similar method.

    Hence I feel the following needs to be taken into account;
    It is not that complicated.

    Ferrari Classification Criteria. Original components model specific.
    1) Made by Ferrari or one of its Contractors
    2) Chassis
    3) Engine
    4) Body
    5) Suspension
    6) In period construction
    7) Electrical System


    Original – A Ferrari that is as ‘it last left the factory’. Fair wear and tear should be taken into account.
    FCC 1,2,3,4,5,6,7

    ----------------------------------------------

    Genuine – Authentic Ferrari but not original.
    FCC 1, either 2&3, 2&4, 3&4, plus 5, 6,

    ----------------------------------------------------

    Authentic – A Ferrari constructed of Ferrari parts but not specifically from the model that it now represents.
    FCC 1, either 2&3, 2&4, 3&4, plus 5

    --------------------------------------------------

    Rebody – A Ferrari that other than the body, is original or genuine.
    FCC 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7

    -----------------------------------------------

    Recreation – A construction of components made to resemble a Ferrari.
    FCC 1 and /or 2&4, 3&4 plus 5 or 7 not model specific.

    ----------------------------------------------

    Replica – Copy that is not the original
    FCC 2, or 3, or, 4, or5, or 6, or 7 all not necessarily model specific.

    ---------------------------------------------

    Fake – made to look like a Ferrari. The construction is comprised of no major Ferrari FCC and possibly no other minor Ferrari parts.
    FCC none of 1, 2, 3, 4
     
  21. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Warren you're missing the point. My suggestion is a way to unclutter Vintage and Rob's solution would work very well. All that matters is that cars are fully disclosed and that threads on fake 250 GTO's, TDF's, 250 TR's, 275 NART's etc. don't clutter this section and non Ferrari replicas are sent to the thread outside of Vintage where they belong.
     
  22. JazzyO

    JazzyO F1 World Champ

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    This seems the best solution for me, with this comment:

    Please make a new subsection where each replica can have its own thread. As I know from my experience with the Dutch language thread, finding something on a thread with many pages is very time consuming. So if someone wants information on a particular chassisnumber, then it would be very useful not to have to wade through a 1-thread archive.
     
  23. ggjjr

    ggjjr Formula Junior

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    In my opinion, the solution above would be best. I would prefer a subforum for the second part, not to give them legitimacy, but so that the thread deosn't keep popping every time something is added. If it is a subforum I can ignore it (almost) completely.

    George
     
  24. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
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    #74 bigodino, Apr 12, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    They can be fun on the track :)
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  25. simon klein

    simon klein F1 World Champ
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    HA! yes they can.

    The same coloured type ran in one of the first Targa Tasmanias',RHD though.
    That same car,and another 37 mixed carby cars,have just finished the McKay rally in Tassie a couple of weeks ago.
    I'm hoping to post some of the few photos' I have(prior to my camera failing)
     

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