How many GTO's (1960's)

Thanks for the update. I will amend my info/sources.

Joop

 

Aaaaagggh nobody believes me , there was a 250 GTO in my local repair garage does anyone know if any mexican guy owns or had owned one?
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

There is one GTO in Mexican ownership. It is normally kept in the United States, and is VERY unlikely to have been in a "repair garage" in Mexico. My guess is that this car was a replica, particularly if it was the 1962/63 body style. Still....

 

Carlos Hanks owns 5575, which FoH keeps and maintains.

http://www.fca-houston.org/TWS97.htm

 

you see? nobody believes me ,actually I lifted it's hood and counted 12 pipes and after that some guy started it's engine and I can tell it wasn't a replica no way! then I asked the garage's owner if he was aware of that's car value and answered ..... too expensive about 50 grand. everytime I recall that it makes me suffer.

 

There are plenty of replicas with 12 cylinder engines and something approaching a Ferrari sound.

Unless you saw this 50 grand GTO in the 70s, this was a replica. EVERY 250 GTO is well accounted for. Value is a bit meaningles since they change hands so infrequently.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Boudewijn has it 100% CORRECT. Only 39 250 GTO.

NONE of the other cars often cited as 250 GTOs can be considered as 250 GTOs because:

(A) They were NOT 250s (i.e. 3-liters)

(B) They were NOT GTOs (i.e. Gran Turismo Omologato).

Ciao,
Gerald

 

first of all I want to tell Wayne how much I respect him for being such a connoiseur ferraristi and very knowledgable I can tell by reading all your interesting posts. then About the link you posted of that replica , I had seen it before and that's just out of my mind or beyond me ,How come a replica wear another F- engine that replica is a whole issue and not to mention it's price (it makes no sense to me since a replica's goal is to be a cheap version ) but you must admit the fact that even a big ferrariphile like you would be fooled in front of that fake ,now back to the 250 GOT i saw in my town, it is very unlikely that a mexican guy can afford that level of quality building a replica ( I know cos I'm a replica owner myself) and speaking of mexican Ferraris just check out what car took best of show at Pebble Beach 2000: a 166MM Touring Barchetta owned by a mexican collector named Lorenzo Zambrano who also had a third place in the 2003 edition but I don't remember which of his cars it was this time. if you have that data let me know.(probably "My" car has been a winner these past few years too the repair guy told me it went to pebble beach the very first time I heard of that place then) So I just want to point out that it was an actual one out of 39 GTO the one I spot some 5 years ago the thing is at that time I had no idea of how collectible and expensice it was thus I didn't check it's vin # and I have a poor pic which soon I'll post just for you guys to tell me if it was the real thing. in the meantime help me find out which car it maybe is

 

Very interesting point about (i.e. Gran Turismo Omologato)
Now here's a question for you and Dave. If I can get Ferrari to make me a US legal MC12 can I call it a GTO or not as it won't be one of the first 25 which are Euro Spec only and I guess those technically are the ones that will make the Maser/Enzo hologamated?

Best
Jim

 

Sorry to barge in, 'Napolis, but have the 1st (25 in '04) and 2nd (25 in '05) series already sold out?

 

Look these are the mexican owned Ferraris I was talking about ,First comes the Barchetta which took best of show 2000 (as stated on Forza 26 page 62) and the other (340 Mexico 1952) was third prize in Class - M 2003 both are owned by the same guy (Lorenzo Zambrano) among several other vintage F- & other brands. now is it possible to believe me?
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Hi Urraco,

Lorenzo Zambrano never had a 250 GTO. However he did have and has a lot of others:
Had: 342 America #0248AL
340 America #0082A
250 GT TdF Zagato #0515GT
166 S #020I
Has: 340 Mexico #0228 AT
250 S #0156ET
166 MM #0058M
250 GT TdF #0557GT
250 MM #0292MM
250 SWB #1539GT
250 GT Speciale #2821GT
250 SWB Bertone #3269GT

 

Boudewijn,

Are you certain Zambrano owns 0292 M (proper designation from the assembly sheets)? First, 0292 is a 212 and has never been a 250 MM, in spite of Brocket's claims that it was the 250 MM prototype, etc. (DeCadenet based the statements about this car in "Victory By Design" on Brocket's claims, and was almost totally incorrect.) The car was bastardized in Italy with incorrect reproduction four-barrel Webers when it was first "restored", but no one ever bothered to redo the engine to 250 specs. It's still a 212.

Second, 0292 M has been in the U.S. for several years, undergoing a correct restoration for its U.S. owner (who is definitely not Zambrano). I haven't really kept up with the car, but haven't heard that it was sold.

The story of 0239 EU (the original designation of 0292) has been a bit confusing, with a 250 MM Pf berlinetta now bearing that designation after a bit of number-swapping at the factory. Are you thinking of that car? It was never 0292, but was originally numbered 0354 (I think -- Gerald?).

Anyway...I'm prettty certain this is not 0292 M.

Regards,

Old Guy

 

Jim --

The real answer, I suppose, is that if you get one, congratulations. It'll be whatever the specs dictate and Berro chooses to call it.
O.G.

 

You are right Old Guy, I meant 0239EU shown at Pebble Beach 2002 and apparently claimed to be 0292 at the moment.

Best
Boudewijn

 

someone once said that Phil Hill is a Ferrari Chat member is that true Old Guy?

 

It is not true.

 

Okay, the story of 0239 and 0292 and 0352 gets pretty confusing and it is too late tonight to try and explain it BUT the 250 MM that Lorenzo Zambrano owns was originally scheduled to be given S/N 0352 MM but was restamped as S/N 0239 EU for some reason, most probably to avoid import taxes.

Of course when it comes to these early cars and the factory number swapping that went on one must decide what number to use to designate the car.

The preferred nomenclature among serious historians is to use the number it was ORIGINALLY assigned, not necessarily the number that was actually stamped on the chass and engine.

Ciao,
Gerald

 

A lot of you fellas already know this, but . . . to expound on the last line of Gerald's post - Because Ferrari sometimes (1) stamped a new car with an older number and (2) replaced a serial number (and chassis stamp) on an existing car with a new number, I believe the convention that Ferrari researchers use (so we all don't go insane) is the following example:

0556(0446)MD - we call the car this because it was made in between 0554 and 0558 in the first week of May 1955. 0556 reflects the number it would have received in the normal progression of manufacturing at Ferrari. 0446 is the number that the car actually carries on its s/n plate (and chassis) even though 0446 was originally worn by a 735S made in the summer of 1954.

As Gerald hinted, Ferrari did this to help good Ferrari customers avoid certain tax and transport issues (when crossing international borders). My understanding is that each vehicle crossing a border had to go through "carnet" (pr. car-nay), the process of making sure a vehicle matched the description (s/n) on its owenrship/registration papers.
So when Mr. Picard turned in his 735S to Ferrari for a new Series II 500 Mondial, as far as the French government was concerned, the car that left France was numbered 0446 and the car that came back into France when he returned was also 0446. The new car gets through carnet w/ no problem and Mr. Picard does not pay any new taxes.

That's what I call customer service . .

 

Here is the story of 0239 EU (0292 MM) as I know it.

Car 0239 EU was completed by Ferrari in September 1952 and was a Vignale Coupe. It was sold to Efrain Ruiz Echeverria of Mexico in October 1952 and he raced it in the 1952 Carrera Panamericana with Pedro Villegas as his co-driver. They were on race #5 and DNF due to an accident.

In July 1953 Echeverria traded the car back to the factory against a new 250 MM Pinin Farina berlinetta. At that time Echeverria's new 250 MM was given the serial number 0239 EU probably to avoid import problems and custom duties.

0239 EU was then restamped as 0292 MM. It then passed through a number of hands (I have 13 subsequent owner's names) and a couple of restorations including Lord Brocket's fanciful remake into something it never was along with a new provenance.

But the bottom line is the car is and always has been a 212, has always been a Vignale coupe, is 0239 EU restamped as 0292 MM and is properly referred to as 0239 EU (0292 MM).

Ciao,
Gerald

 

Hello
where have you seen this nice picture published?

Thanks

 

a poor picture I took about 6 years ago at that time I was unaware of the importance of this car so I only took this one, but how to find out if it's a replica? Old Guy (in this thread) said one of the 39 GTO is in mexican ownership . any further info?
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Hi Urraco,
No doubt it is a replica: a.o. wrong nose, wrong lower front ligts.
Best
Boudewijn

 

This will be, I hope, the most comprehensive post. I shall then post each of the GTOs and describe them and some of their history (and I can add more historical information if you would like to ask me about a specific s/n). The information that I have collected is accurate as of about 5 years ago, and I know at least one if not more have changed hands since.

During 1962 - 1964 36 GTOs left the facotry. 32 had Series one body, one ressembling the 330 LM belinetta, three with series II body. Four cars with the series one body were rebodied in the 1964 style.

Of the 36 cars produced, 28 were left hand drive.

In addition to the series of GTOs, Ferrari also produced 3 4-liter vairiants, one of which was retro-fitted with the 3-liter engine to compete in the under 3-liter class with its Italian owner.
In addition to THESE was a series of four Pininfarina-designed 330LM berlinettas that had GTO like nose profile and tails like the Lusso.