We've been through a decade of moaning about how hard ethanol-spked gasoline is on engine parts. How much more ethanol-resistant are modern hoses and the other vulnerable components compared to those originally installed in our vehicles? Surely manufacturers have improved their products to adapt to the new realities of ethanol. I'm refreshing the last couple of fuel vapor hoses in my 308. I bought a piece of that OEM blue-tinted clear tubing (Cavis Benz) to replace vapor hoses (part numbers 109354 & 109353). Given how soft the old Cavis Benz hoses had become, and I am not sure how young they were, I am considering re-replacing them with modern 5/8” LP fuel hose thinking the black rubber/plastic stuff might be an improved compound. Thoughts?
Your Cavis Benz went soft? All the Cavis Benz hoses I've dealt with were rock hard. I assume the stuff is soft when new but I've never purchased new genuine Cavis Benz before.
Does Dave Helms supply all the little vent hoses as well? It wasn't part of my kit from him and I think I'd have purchased all the 308 fuel hoses.
I asked him in 2013 when I installed his lower hose kit. He said he wanted to do an upper hose kit but he wasn't actively planning production. The old Cavis Benz hose I removed was considerably softer than the new length of hose. The old hose was as stiff as new outside the hose clamps and still the new color. The working section had gotten soft and had significantly discolored to brown. New Cavis Benz hose is very stiff.
He has turned over the marketing of his products to Ricambi America. He does not sell them directly from his shop, he's too busy!! I talked to him Friday....
To the OP, any modern rated hoses take the current fuel blend into account, Gates, Goodyear....etc. Look for a teflon component, IIRC. Been common in marine products for a decade or more.
Any J30R9 or newer J30R12 hose would be fine and will last longer than the OEM hoses on a 308. Teflon hoses are yet another option. The primary difference between R9 and R12 is the permeability (i.e. ability of fuel vapors to pass through the hose wall to the atmosphere). R12 has lower permeability, but harder to find. Teflon is usually referred to as PTEF hose.
If I could post photos I could show you a picture of current production Gates fuel hose destroyed by California gas in about 1 year.
It's my intension to replace hoses on my 308 this spring. If I remember I will cut them and post pictures. They are original, 30 years old. We have been running E10 in CT for 10 years now.
I believe you. Brian, in light of that how do all new cars manage 10 years with no issues? Ethanol 10% has been in wisconsin gas for over 10 years. No issues in any of our vehicles... Bmw, Honda, Toyota, John deere, porsche, etc.... The porsche and Ferrari are 1980s vintage... No issues.... Was the older hose better? Truly curious... Bo
Cars manufacturers have not used rubber fuel hose for years. OTC rubber fuel hose for early applications is ****.
Is the stuff Honda and Toyota put in their cars better stuff? Should we be using that? Clearly the hose in new cars is lasting with minimal issues, or there would be massive recalls... Confused... If the hose is crap, why aren't more cars having issues? I have heard of more problems with lawn mowers and snowmobiles due to ethanol, but zilch with cars. And in the Midwest, all fuel has ethanol.... I know ethanol sucks, but no way to avoid it here. And I haven't heard of any common issues with newer cars. There has got to be a reasonably priced hose substitute... Bo
Thanks for the info. Your description is very helpful and enabled further reading. In searching for J30R12, I stumbled across this article from Hot Rod magazine which corroborates your suggestions: Performance Fuel Hoses - Hot Rod Magazine An important point in the article is that J30R9 and J30R12 have been designed specically with ethanol as a consideration. At the end of their article though, they seem to flop their opinion of J30R9 and don't comment on J30R12 as they make their point that Teflon will save the world. PTFE hose does indeed sound vastly superior but the reality is that it is probably unsuitable for 308s without extensive retrofitting because it doesn't look like it can be stretched diametrically or clamped with hose clamps. It seems to need special fittings. Looks like the big box stores sell stuff spec'ed as J30R7. Gates Fuel Injection hose is rated J30R9. ... I wonder what Cavis Benz is! The Source of All Things (Amazon) does not list J30R12 in the 16mm (5/8") size. Does anyone make the stuff? Any Brand Names to suggest?
Just a data point. Last year high ethanol (10% or higher) was brought before the German Gov't. Fuel fire was a big discussion point (other points discussed I mention below). MB, BMW and Porsche all said they would NOT recommend putting E10 or higher in ANY of their cars, old or brand new. The next day you could not find a trace of those statements. But they lasted long enough that they likely killed E15 here forever, and CRUSHED E10. At almost any station you are hard pressed to find more than one pump pushing more than E05. If you pull in and find all the pumps 'taken' save one, it is a sure bet that one is pushing E10. The Germans are also figuring out and broadcasting, it cost more and pollutes more the higher the E-level compared to pure gas for a given number of miles driven. I bet some day that ethanol here in Euro-Land will completely die, but very quietly. No one is going to fess-up to this colossal F-Up. I did not mean to go P&R on this, but it is what it is. You also have some of the backstory on what is happening here that affects our cars both new and old. What you take from this is up to each of you. One more Data Point. Gates World HQs is about 40 miles from Dave Helm's business. He did talk to them. He went into the $-losing 'hose design' business anyway. Sure tells me something. How about you (rhetorical question)?
I wasn't aware that Europe was promoting ethanol in fuel. We now grow a lot of corn here in the USA. About 30% of the corn crop goes to producing ethanol. Ethanol costs about $70/bbbl to produce. It is now politically impossible to cancel the program. There is a tremendous amount of information and debate regarding ethanol production other places on the internet; lets keep this thread technical, focused on hoses.
Agreed. Just wanted to let folks know a little of the wide ranging background of the question, 'what hose should I buy?'. That question is a helluva bad bowl of spaghetti. I have said my piece and will move on as honestly I have no more knowledge to contribute. No issues. Peace.
This is the real question. I pump E10 into my Audi week after week, year after year, and the car seems to handle it fine. Why wouldn't modern replacement fuel hoses be formulated from materials that are ethanol compatible?
I have no idea how your not having issues is some older vehicles, Luck? maybe or your fuel station is one of the few without ethanol? my 1990 Corvette needed new fuel injectors to handle the ethanol. My winter beater went down for a fuel related issue, seems ethanol chewed up the rubber on the tank mounted fuel pump. I swapped all the fuel lines on my 308 just because I didn't want a barbecued Ferrari. Every state I have lived in for the past decade has had that crap added to the fuel.
Is there any rubber fuel lines on modern vehicles? IIRC, it's all a type of plastic hardline or aluminum.
first of all, thanks to the originator for bringing this up. I am learning about something which I had not thought was an issue previously. in Canada every pump already has E10....there is a standard sticker on each pump nozzle (including diesel) that "this may contain up to 10% ethanol". there is no option for nonethanol vs ethanol. it has been sold this way for the past 10+ years. i have come across a few stations which sell 15% ethanol, but these are clearly labeled and these are separate pumps. I would presume the car mfg install hoses compatible for ethanol. same for the parts suppliers. so all new hoses supplied in Canada are ethanol compatible. the real issue is what does ethanol do internally inside the engine, the carbs, etc. I have cut and pasted below from an article which deals with ethanol in older cars: So aside from obviously using less petroleum, why mix ethanol with gasoline? Ethanol, also called ethyl alcohol or grain alcohol, adds oxygen to reduce air pollution. Available heat energy from ethanol also makes it a good octane enhancer. As such, we can bump the compression ratios a little higher to achieve more power, without detonating an engine to death. That's the good news. The bad news is the detrimental side effects of ethanol in gasoline when used in older cars. Ethanol is especially hard on classic cars, with their rubber fuel hoses, rubber fuel pump diaphragms, carburetor float needle valves, cork and rubber gaskets, galvanized fuel tanks and fuel lines, and other related components. Some owners have even reported problems with phenolic carburetor floats. Ethanol also tends to be hard on die-cast carburetor bodies, which calls for close inspection of the metal carb parts, because ethanol and zinc don't get along well. Although ethanol probably won't harm your carburetor's metal parts, there's always some element of risk, depending on your carburetor's metallurgy. Another known ethanol issue is water retention. Like brake fluid, ethanol likes to retain more water then gasoline. Because ethanol tends to be hard on rubber and cork components, you can wind up with leaks and bits of rubber in the fuel system, which can cause a sticking float and plugged passages. This is why visually inspection of fuel bowls is important from time to time. While the jury remains out on the adverse effects of pumping E10 (90-percent gasoline and 10-percent ethanol) into our classics, E85 (85-percent ethanol and 15-percent gasoline) should never be used in a classic car. so the real issue is not the exterior hoses, but the internal carb parts. i am not sure if the rebuild kits are upgraded with ethanol in mind. but all of the above does explain what happened to my 76 silver shadow. i was getting overly rich, could see the fuel flowing out down the throttle body. in rebuilding the carbs, found the floats were fuel logged......how did that happen? through talking with the rolls Royce forum, the ethanol permeates more than fuel, and it goes into the floats over a better of time and fills them up, so the floats are always down, and the fuel keeps on pouring in. the new floats ordered were compatible with ethanol so hopefully will not have this problem in the future. so there is an impact with ethanol.....we may just not be aware of the full impact.
Wow... I think everyone agrees that running 1990 fuel lines in 2015 is a very bad idea, because fuels today are different. But, the question the OP asked is whether the hoses you buy today are going to degrade in the same way the old stuff did. Browsing through the Gates hoses on their site, it sounds like their products take ethanol into account. Reading Rifledriver's post seems to suggest otherwise. So...
It's probably not the ethanol but rather the nonsense fuel additives/stabilizers people add to the fuel when putting cars in storage. I never use any of the carp. If you check the MSDS of most of these additives they are pretty much heating oil plus some pretty caustic solvents.
