How do you know when to replace shift shaft seals?

i just had mine replaced april 2010,,,while my 30k service was being done,,,labor and material was 500,,,MAKE SURE WHOEVER DOES IT,,,REPLACES THE INNER AND THE OUTER SHIFT SHAFT SEAL... i had it done years ago and the prick only replaced the outer seal,,,and it ended up leaking again,,,look for drops of gear oil under that area where you park your car...thats my best 2 cents,,good luck,,,Brett

 

Shift shaft seals are likely LESS than $20.00 to replace, YOURSELF. Yes there are two. Use the QUAD seals IMO, not OEM.

Buy them from Verell, a member here. 4 hours to replace if you are are IDIOT like me and that depends on what has to be taken further apart. That 4 hours is a big "grain of salt" remark.


Replace the Silent Blocks in the shift shaft too (from Verell also). THAT is more time. Center tunnel has to come out/up. Plan a weekend and another $50-80 for both (just guessing).


Plan on a weekend and you are close.


Realining the shift shaft to function correctly is the hard part and takes the most time to get it right.

 

The pan is already off so yes change the shift shaft seals now but you will need to get the oil pan cover off as well. New seals and gasket should get you on your way to a leak free car, wishfully.

Not sure how the 2nd poster had the work done for $500 labor, it's a good 8 hour job for someone who knows what they are doing.

 

If your engine oil is leaking through the shaft into the gearbox, replace the shaft seals. This is known by removing the gearbox oil FILLER plug. If oil comes plummeting out of the filler plug, the shift shaft seal between the engine sump and box sump is faulty and must be replaced.

 

i was in good hands with CRAIG AT FAST CARS (TILLACK),,he was already doing a 30k service and gave me a good deal on the seal replacements,,,he said 500.00 and i was greatful because the other guy charged me 300.00 ..and only did the outer seal,,,but i can appreciate the other posters comment about it being an 8 hour job,,,Brett

 

I beg to differ. Although I had both pans off, IIRC, on my 308 I could have changed both seals with only the tranny pan off and then getting the shift shaft out. The shift shaft fork in the tranny MUST come off to get the last 3rd of the shift shaft out.

Taking the oil pan off also would have been easier in the grand scheme of things, but it is the BEYOTCH of all MOFOs of the two pans to get off and not necessary in this case; easier, YES, sort of.

8 hours? Nah. Probably 3, closer to 4 if you know what you are doing and are only going to half-a$$ the job and change ONLY the two oil sump seals. That is why you change the Silent Blocks and the "accordian" seals on the outside of the shift shaft sealing the oil housing and passenger cabin too.

Do it all and do it right. Very SOLID 8 hours.

 

if they are not leaking now,,,they will leak at some point,,thats for sure,,,if it were me,,,i would take the guess work out and replace them,,,but then again,,i hate leaks ,,,no matter where in the drivetrain they come from!! lol....

 

Brett,

Like the US Army, UH 47 Chinook helicopter,

IF it leaks buckets ... you are just fine.

When it stops leakiing, THEN you have a REAL problem.



Only half joking.

 

carter. when I had my '87 328 seals redone, there was visible oil but no pudlles on the floor. My only shifting problem was every once in a while I could not get her into 1st gear when cold. I did not fool around and had all the seals done and done right by a good guy. No more problem. Good luck

 

I differ with your differal, You have to have the engine sump cover off to change the seal at the front of the engine. The swaged retainer is on the inside of the engine sump & the sump casting wall thickness is too thick to work the old seal out & the new seal in. Been there & tried.

BTW, you do NOT remove the swaged in washer, just use a hook tool to remove the old seal & push the new one in by hand.

 

I have a question about these alternative seals. I think I am misunderstanding something.
I can see that a 4-lobed ring is a clear improvement over a normal O-ring. But as I understand it, only early cars have an O-ring. The picture on Superperformance of the later seal shows it as a "proper" oil seal which works by having an inner suspended ring which is stretched over the shaft. So the seal is made effectively by the rubber being in tension. It does not seem to have a spring to help the tension though unfortunately.
But a 4-lobe ring will only seal by being in compression? Similar to two O-rings next to each other. This seems to me to be a less effective method, but I could be totally wrong having never seen either seal in the flesh.
A close-up picture of the Verrel seal would be good.

 

Verell,

I said "IIRC."

I lost all my pics of that time, but I'd BET I went in and fished them out and put them in from the front, not from the oil sump side. That was the only way I could see what I was doing while lying on my back and I worked with mostly dentist pics. I have longish, thin fingers too, so .......

Can you fish up a pic and maybe that will jar this occasionally faulty memory?

 

I thought I remember Rifledriver saying that only amateurs needed to remove the engine sump cover to change the front shift seal, that he didn't.

I am an amateur and I did remove my oil pan and didn't regret it.

 

The seal in the Superformance picture is NOT the standard Ferrari part. A V seal like that only seals against liquid flow in 1 direction. It might work OK for the front of the engine, but it's arguable whether or not it will keep engine oil & trans fluid separated.

The standard #115372 part is a almost square solid cross-section ring. I say almost square because there is a slight ~0.5 mm taper to the outer edge. See first picture below.

You are correct that the quad ring seals by pressure on both surfaces similar to an o-ring. However, it is a much better fit to the shaft & flat perimeter of the seal mounting groove as shown in the 2ndpicture. The lobes seal much better than the flat inner & outer surface of the OEM seal as the lobes are under enough pressure to deform and squeege both the shaft & groove.

Mark, went thru my shift shaft & transmission rebuild photos & the only picture I can find is #3 below. It was taken from the inside of the sump showing seal removal with a hook tool.

However, you can see that the wall thickness is something close to 15 mm. I guess with slim fingers, dental tools & perseverence you could remove the old seal from outside the sump. I'm not sure how would be able to maneuver a new o-ring, much less insert a quad ring + a 2nd thinner o-ring side by side before inserting the shaft.

Part of the problem is exterior access as the square chassis beam that goes across just below the opening in the engine sump severely restricts access.

The newer style square cross-section seal, or it's quad ring replacement just don't want to flex & fit thru the hole then bend down into the groove. I won't say it's impossible, just that I gave up & pulled the engine sump cover.
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Thanks for this. I didnt realise the Superperformance part was not the original. I agree this type of seal might not be the best type when the shaft is moving longitudinally as it will seal better in one direction than the other.

 

If using quad seals, remove oil pan...read the stickies first.

If reinstalling OEM, try it like Rifledriver recommends: remove only the gear oil pan and use the shift shaft itself to provide backing force for installing inner seal; outer seal should be straight forward. BTW, I forget which side of OEM seal faces the engine oil pan...ask!

Definitly do not remove the washers holding the seals in place.

Also, if you are trying to do without removing oil pan, take some pics...we could use a good reference.

BTW, I installed quad seals and am very pleased.

 

Verell,

Thanx for the pic. I still think I went in from the front but M A Y B E ....... not.


With how difficult it was to get the oil pan off and back on, if it wasn't for the oil baffle I plan on putting in someday, I'd NEVER, EVER take that FRACKER (oil pan) off again if I could help it.

It took most of a weekend just to get it off and another to get it back on. It WOULD NOT come off the pick-up tube NO MATTTER WHAT !!!

If it wasn't for that, it was a downright easy job. And your tool made your silent blocks a breeze. Thanx.

 

Did you remove the dipstick tube & fish out the funnel shaped dipstick extension? That's usually what stymies first timers, not the oil pickup.

Unless your oil pickup were bent, that could give you grief.

First time I pulled my engine sump cover it took half a day, 2nd time was less than an hour, at least half of the time was getting the $!#$ dipstick tube loose. Think I must have over-tightened it when I put it back together.

 

NOPE. Both the dipstick and extension were both out. MAYBE the pick-up is bent. I had o apply some semi-serious pressure to it to get the pan back in.


The deeper I dig in the more ham-fisted things I find ........