Honda to quit F1 after 2021 season | Page 10 | FerrariChat

Honda to quit F1 after 2021 season

Discussion in 'F1' started by william, Oct 2, 2020.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2006
    25,447
    No need to leave, Ferrari could have vetoed the hybrid rules if they wanted; but they didn't.

    Probably because they were very interested and knew they needed to learn about that technology.

    The proof if that they have hybrid cars on their catalogue now.
     
  2. SimCity3

    SimCity3 F1 Rookie


    Sure, but I won't be buying one their hybrids despite the mathematical stats.

    The world's most valuable Ferrari has a slender 300bhp ICE engine, and for good reason. Looks and sounds exquisite.
     
    Sig. Roma likes this.
  3. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2006
    25,447

    Ferrari, like any other car maker, has to abide by the legislation and only hybrid cars will meet the carbon emission limits soon.

    So your comment about "Ferrari not being interested in developing hybrids" is only your short-sighted opinion.
     
  4. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,767
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Well there are many, and I am not an expert. However on the GTLMs they measure the balance of power in a number of ways. One of the ways is using beacons I believe or essentially a split time in sectors. A big part of racing in GTLM is passing slower cars and negotiating the LMP cars. Other manufacturers believe that Porsche developed some kind of system to allow an “overboost” between beacons. The system was smart or somehow guided so that either it or the driver knew when to disable it so that when passing the second beacon the total time in the zone would be correct for bop. In reality what they created was a special overtake system which could be used in all sorts of strategic ways. I don’t know if any of this was ever formally charged either. I understand other teams reverse engineered it.

    Porsche just left IMSA GTLM for 21. Not sure if related.
     
  5. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2006
    25,447

    Thanks, I wasn't aware of that system.
    The Porsche engines are atmospheric though, so how can they use "overboost" ?
    I thought you were talking about the way Porsche switched the engine location on the 911 GTLM.
    Turning the engine around the axle transformed the chassis dynamics, and allowed Porsche to use a larger diffuser.
    This was, apparently, done with the blessing of IMSA and the ACO and the approval of other constructors.
    This proves that a constructor can literally drive horses and carriage through regulations if his participation is valued by organisers.
     
  6. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,767
    Pittsburgh, PA
    I’m using the term clumsily, but the idea is to give more power. Whether they advance timing, lean it out, etc.

    Yah that is the political part you mention secondly. BMW has been very persuasive in the past w IMSA as well. Like look at the hardtop z4 GTLM. That GTLM car was based on a road car that never existed. Lol.
     
    william likes this.
  7. SimCity3

    SimCity3 F1 Rookie


    As you mention short-sightedness, two things worth noting

    Legislation is political, which changes all the time.
    The EU is falling apart and emissions legislation may well change again driven by the needs of independent countries.


    For high days and dry days, future repair costs on complex Ferrari hybrids will be extremely expensive and likely lead to heavy depreciation.

    The F154CD unit and others are more than enough fun for the street.
     
  8. TonyL

    TonyL F1 Rookie

    Sep 27, 2007
    3,811
    Norfolk - UK
    Full Name:
    Tony
    In my opinion Hybrid vehicles have got to go down as one of the biggest cons of the 21st century, comparing like for like cars its estimated by most that the payback period of these vehicles is around 5 - 10 years (supercars is possibly much more) and in that time the car will have depreciated substantially and cost much more in maintenance so the payback period may be much greater. By that time the car is possibly only fit for the scrapyard. How many classic car hybrid cars will there be in 40 years time? None is my guess

    If we then talk about "will they save the planet" again in my opinion they will not given the additional raw materials needed to produce them, the additional maintenance and potential issues for things to go badly wrong. The more complicated it is the more to go wrong!

    To save the planet governments across the world will need to essentially tax the car off the road, the dilemma is reduced manufacturing, infrastructure etc and the mass unemployment that would follow.

    Its worth noting that future EU plans (Galileo) are possibly being geared to charge motorists pay per mile through modern satellite navigation systems in order to reduce the ever increasing emissions.

    Do we need to reduce emissions - yes, quite how we do it would be unpalatable for most of us!

    Tony
     
    SimCity3 likes this.
  9. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2006
    25,447

    The auto industry works in a global market, and the main constructors don't make cars for specific countries.
    Most industrialised countries have accepted to reduce carbon emission to zero in future, that we like it or not.
    Even in case of EU failure, that commitment won't go away, certainly not when the largest developing market (China) is on board.
    Ferrari will be going with the flow, and adopt any technology that secures its future.
     
  10. SimCity3

    SimCity3 F1 Rookie


    +1

    Governments are overlooking just how clean a petrol ICE is.
    They are VERY clean !


    Meanwhile Russian and Chinese industrial chimneys are major contributors to the poisonous stuff.
    That's where Greta needs to focus.
     
    Bas likes this.
  11. SimCity3

    SimCity3 F1 Rookie


    Political policies constantly change. Almost on a weekly basis.
    Nothing is set in stone.

    You assume that the auto industry is controlling Governments ?
     
  12. SimCity3

    SimCity3 F1 Rookie


    Re: China
    Lots of companies I deal with are cancelling contracts with China.
    They are steadily being ostracized.
     
  13. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2006
    25,447

    You may take it as a lot of nonsense, but the commitment to zero carbon emission is there to stay.
    If anything, governments keep confirming their plans, and advancing their deadlines.
    The auto industry works to meet the regulations all the time to stay in business.
    Car makers are ditching diesel and NA engines, to adopt supercharged hybrids whilst also introducing electric cars in their range.
    That is a fact.
     
  14. SimCity3

    SimCity3 F1 Rookie



    It's currently a fact !
    And individual Governments can change their policies at any time, contingent on market conditions.

    It's also a fact that I just dumped the Panamera Hybrid as its out of town economy was hilarious. 21mpg on average :D
     
    Bas likes this.
  15. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2006
    25,447
    Re: China
    Politicians may have knee-jerk reactions to events, but the West car industry is dependent on China.

    - China is the fastest growing and largest market worldwide benefiting most European and US car makers. (for example in 2019 Buick sold 875 000 cars in China, 4 times more than in the USA!)

    - China is an important (almost essential) components supplier to the car industry in the West (cabling, wiring system, micro electric motors, micro switches, instrumentation, etc ...).

    - Chinese and Western car companies are inter-connected by many contracts. GM, Ford, VW, Peugeot PSA, Jaguar Land Rover, even Mercedes have factories in China in partnership with local car makers.

    - China has large investments in Europe, some we don't even know about. Geely owns 10% of Mercedes,+100% of Volvo, Dongfeng bailed out Peugeot PSA and has almost 15% of shares, BMW and VW have Chinese participation in their capital, etc ...

    I cannot see the car makers in the West cutting the branch they are sitting on.
    It would take a long time to disentangle the links that unite them with China.
     
  16. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
    41,300
    ESP
    Full Name:
    Bas
    Glad the fact you brought up diesel. They governments tried their very best to get everyone in a diesel, incentives, cheaper fuel etc (sounds familiar?). Then suddenly they decided that diesel was in fact, not so great...and everyones diesel suddenly became an expensive piece of paperweight.

    So yes, Governments do change their commitment.

    That is a fact.
     
    SimCity3 likes this.
  17. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2006
    25,447

    At the time, reducing CO2 was the target. It was only realised later that , although diesel engines emit less CO2 than petrol ones, they give nasty particules that are just as harmful. So the diesel became the bad boy.

    I am not arguing about the merits of one system again another, only that adapting to new circumstances is essential.
    I am never one to advocate rear-guard battles; I find them pointless.

    If F1 goes bio fuel, fine with me. If it goes hydrogen, perfect. If it switches to electric, again that will be OK.
    Right now, nobody seems to know ...
     
  18. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
    41,300
    ESP
    Full Name:
    Bas
    All we need to do is force the shipping industry to use cleaner fuel. 1 single cruise ship emits as much particulate matter as 1 million cars, every day.

    There we go, I just solved the climate crisis. Where is my scouts badge?

    Round 2 when they start glueing themselves to the roads again (spring time, too cold now), I'll order every single cruise ship sunk. Useless floating hotels full of geriatric wife swappers anyways. They'll become artificial reefs so the fishies are happy.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
    SimCity3 and 375+ like this.
  19. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
    41,300
    ESP
    Full Name:
    Bas
    Biofuel would be the best option. Electric is formula E and F1 would kill it's fanbase. Hydrogen I would like to see, 2 stroke engine should bring decent noise too...
     
    SimCity3 likes this.
  20. 375+

    375+ F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 28, 2005
    11,884
    +1 there is virtually no discussion of this topic. Why?
     
    Bas and SimCity3 like this.
  21. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2006
    25,447
    I would have a better use for redundent cruise ships.

    Why not anchor them in the proximity of large town, and transform them into hotels, student accommodations, or even detention centres?

    They have all the facilities onboard, restaurants, shops, entertainments, swimming pools, gyms, etc ...

    That would save £millions to the taxpayers and solve the lack of housing.
     
  22. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2006
    25,447
    Bringing back the noise wouldn't be clever. Noise is considered a polluant these days.

    When people complain enough, they bring restrictions, and can even force track closure.
     
  23. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2006
    25,447
    The shipping industry has to abide to some rules too, and only use low-sulfur fuel to visit Western countries these days.
    Checks are made in harbours in Europe, but cheaper fuel is still available in Africa and Asia though.
     
  24. SimCity3

    SimCity3 F1 Rookie



    China has that position because the West has aided it. Nike, Apple et al.

    But, China is no longer the cheapest place to manufacture goods.

    This will see an uplift in domestic production with aligned values, transparency and trust.
     
    stavura, singletrack and Bas like this.
  25. SimCity3

    SimCity3 F1 Rookie



    Let's also strip out violence from Rugby and Boxing. It's anti-social
     
    stavura and Bas like this.

Share This Page