Here we go...

There were cars on the track and when it comes right down to it, all the Bridgestone teams showed up to the race with the right equipment and Michelin came with and inferior tire. If the rules have to be changed because someone came il equiped for a race the what kind of precidence would that be setting for future races?

 

You don't change the rules, you adapt to the situation: Make it a non championship race for the ones ill prepared and let the well prepared teams benefit from the points.

Think about the damage this FIAsco caused to F1 in general and its reputation in the US in particular? No wonder we no longer have a GP.

 

while I agree that there were more WAYS TO SOLVE IT..none of them served every party, and the ones invited TO THIS CIRCUS were suppoused to play by the rule book in advance...

...and remember when in 2004 SF won again, those meetings with every team principal involved, including both tire manufacturers regarding the 1 TIRE PER RACE , saw the argument in which Jean Tdot said something like this...

...We at Ferrari understand the situation, and no longer will attend this meetings, since we are only 3 teams against this new ruling. we are ready to face the next championship with your rules anyway...

the little franchman was elocuent, and stood by that... but we lost big time...

...then, after those meetings took place, this guy PATRICK HEAD said ..."its true, only Ferrari wins in Formula 1, all the rest of us barely compete in F2"...and RESIGNED from williams!

...so then I see why Bridgestone and their teams would have a say about altering performance or track design on that particular venue.

 

It was'nt a race it was a farce and I felt sorry for all the people that went to see a race and got shafted..

 

Just to touch on the original post, after watching ron look weepy and tearsome when people question whether mclaren have broken the rules, surely if found guilty with PROOF this time his position will be untenable. I would think the same for mr whitmarsh too, it will be very surprising if mercedes do not completley overhaul the upper echelons of mclaren-they will be very worried about shareholder opinion as much as anything and will have to be seen to act-and swiftly. Roll on press release....reckon about 19 hours now?

 

Right you are...it was a Fiasco and would have been nomatter what way it would have run. The big problem with races in the USA I believe is that nobody wants to take the bull by the horns and build a really nice track. They want to make money the cheap way and run a street circuit. Yes Tony made a good go of it with what he had but when it all comes down to it...there is a great population of F1 fans in the USA and there is more money there than most countries that host an F1 race but still no decent track. "Build it and they will come"

 

Ron will retire of that I am sure how can he sustain this amount of flak.

WOW Matt welcome in the racing section you live down the road from me..

 

If that is the case, it would make Bridgestone cars ill-equipped to run the race at Indy that day then meaning that they may not even finish the race at all because of a ill-handling car. IMO, that's not fair for the Bridgetone runners either.

IIRC, there were several purposals made overnight, but none were accepted because none of them were truely fair solutions. The so call alterations to the track and the no points awarded to the Michellin teams were not linked but separate purposals, and if you will allow me to be cynical for a moment, who is to say that a Michellin runner won't accidentally take out a Bridgestone runner should he suffers a tire failure on track? Too many variables and too many questions, if this is the case, I don't blame Todt for rejecting the purposal at all. IMO, when an issue gets clouded by too many variables or unknowns, one should clear the table and focus on the priniciples and the fundamentals, which was what Todt did by simply standing by the FIA rules. While the race totally sucked for the fans, it was the only fair and right thing to do as Michellin is the only one that should be blamed for the whole debacle.

 

That was actually the one argument I was thinking about that might have caused Todt to disagree to a chicane. If a Michelin runner takes out a Ferrari by accident, and that's quite possible particularly if the Michelin runner has nothing to loose, then Ferrari looses a virtually guaranteed 10 points.

 

Also a very good point.

 

I read 3 pages of posts, and all I can think about is who cares! This is really nothing in the grand scheme of things... its really just an other sport that takes its self too serious. sure there are $$$ billions at stake, but for who... the super rich already, that have been sticking it to the fans for years???

I dont feel sorry for anyone... if Mclaren gets away with stealing secrets ( like that has not happend before!) then bully to them! Ferrari will just go on the look out for better espionage techniques... and the sport will cost even more... its utterly stupid that so much time is wasted on this.

Sue the SOB's for stealing and let the court decide - if they did then they will have to live with a conviction - of Cooglan, Stephney, Mclaren and Mercedes... I say let the court of public opinion judge. - thing is nobody except a small minority ( like us on F-Chat ) really care.

If Ferrari wins the WC because of this - I would not look at it as a real victory... as for Alonso and Hamilton... they are just as guilty as the rest of McLaren if it turns out to be true. .... its a team thing.... you cant have it both ways.... if they were being paid a couple of grand each race and are struggling like in the 60's and 70's... OK... I would say dont ruin their career... but If you are a superstar, big boy making Millions... and you hear of this stuff going on ... you owe it to your sponsors, and team to find out the truth... use some of your $$$ to protect your self...hire independant investigators etc... if you rely on the team and they are guilty... guess what you are to!!! I think US law calls it an enterprise... engaging on stealing trade secrets for our own gain... covered under RICO in US courts.

If I were a US sponsor of McLaren I would be getting the laywers revved up.

 

First of all McLiaren didn't steal anything. Evidence seems to be pointing to the fact they received and used stolen intellectual property in the development of their car. Second, why wouldn't it be a real victory for Ferrari if McLiaren get tossed ? They scored the most points of any legally developed car/team on the grid. If you're leading the Tour de France and get caught blood doping and the guy in second didn't blood dope and goes on to win, would you feel it's not a real victory for the second place guy ?

 

Best analogy yet...

 

+10! Very well put!

 

OF course!!! Its called Justice to those found guilty, "IF" they are found guilty (again) with this new evidence and a punishment following suit. What other outcome would you rather have? "Mclaren is found guilty "even" with the new hardcore evidence but no punishment placed "again?" Thats just stupid!!! I suppose you have a better idea of how "it" should turn out to please the masses!!! get real........

 

The funny thing is if Mclaren took the stolen Ferrari plans and then realized that applying any of Ferrari's information would make their car less reliable. LOL

 

Ferrari deliberately gave Stepney the wrong plans. It is like the flawed Concorde drawings given to Tupolev.

 

What I was trying to say is that I agree with you, if what you said about the Bridgestones tires were true, that it would have been grossly unfair to the Bridgestone runners had the chicane been added, because their cars may now struggle to find a balanced setup for the modified Indy track.

 

Understood....Sorry.

 

IMO is more a business than a sport, on top off what Hemingway said "only car racing and bullfighting are sports...the rest are all games..."

...besides, the ones invited TO THIS CIRCUS were suppoused to play by the rule book in advance...

..I CANT EVEN IMAGINE WHAT IF THIS WAS FERRARI CAUGHT INSTEAD OF MCLAREN...

...then all the SennasXXX in the world would hack in the FCHAT server and send viruses to every single IP addresses...

 

No need, we are all friends here

 

Hemingway said there are only three true sports, bullfighting, auto racing, and mountain climbing. The rest are merely games.

That is the first thing you got wrong in your post.

This is the second.

It doesn't matter to me who the teams are that are involved in this debacle. My argument comes down solely to waiting for factual evidence and not rushing to judgement based on speculation and hearsay, I don't care if it is McLaren that is accused, Ferrari, or Super Aguri, that is not the point. I recognize that this may be difficult for some to understand.

 

Nice to know there is another f-chatter near by...alti by any chance? Maybe ron will think he has to stay...if he leaves it may seem an admission of guilt. In all honesty i do not think he knows what has been going on, but it is his job to know, and if he didn't know, why didn't he ?I think unless he comes out of this completeley exhonerated he is in a lose/lose situation. Then again i am slightly biased-are you in the foc by any chance?

 

Matt,

No not alti other way Stretton ,but funny enough I did buy my 360 there..not in the FOC.

I think I read somewhere RD was thinking of leaving but like you say it could make him look a whole lot guilter now catch 22.
Good point why didnt he know,and if not why not .
If he did know IMO his biggest mistake in his career was not going straight to the FIA with it.
Just leaving the two idiots to face the music,and thus not wrecking this good racing season.
My gut feeling is even without this spying issue I think the standings would be pretty much the same..Flame suit activated