Having head gaskets made - advise

I don't have any experience with this, but if he gets them to work on race cars they may work out. I would think the head bolts would have bearing on the reliability.


Ago

 

what Hylomar spray on product is he using?

 

Bob:

If this guy has used this supplier for custom made gaskets in the past and if he is going to guarantee the work, you're probably in decent hands. However, I would ask all of the questions you have of the fellow and make sure you get the warm and fuzzy. No sense in going through the expense and having to do it again in a few months.

I suppose that if you are having custom made gaskets, one should expect differences in their construction from the OEM version.

Gary Bobileff, for example, is typically very hesitant to use materials and procedures he's not used in the past before. Mostly because he guarantees his work and doesn't want to lose his shirt on having to redo something. I can't blame him. I've had to "pay up" to get OEM products because he won't use products unproven by him.

My point is that if you trust your guy to do things right and stand behind the end product, you should probably go with it. So if he has experience with these gaskets and has confidence in their ability to do the job, go with it (unless he's doing something obviously stupid, in which case Caveat Emptor )

 

Is the maser engine open liner? I have many experiences with cometic gaskets over I can't remember how many years and have had 100% success so far. For me they are the go to head gasket. I also actually had a pair of cometic gaskets made for my 80's Maser qporte which is an open liner block which is harder to seal. No problem. There have been a few threads here about Ferrari OEM gasket problems which are yet to be unsolved where the pros have no acceptable solution at that time. In one of those threads I recommended cometic and some of the pros expressed some issues with them on the Ferrari application which I can't remember and don't remember if the mechanisim of their concern was ever explained. You'll have to do some searching but my pea brain still likes cometic and If I needed a gasket that's where I'll be looking first unless I find something better or the pros come up with a "final solution."

 

Cometic makes a very good product. I would trust them completely.

 

My Dad used sheet copper and a ball peen hammer to form the gasket. That was on a small block Chevy... I'm sure it will work for everything else...

GT

 

Oh yes. No doubt. No vaseline, no hug, no kiss. You don't want to see my parts bill to this point for the Miura engine rebuild. A lot of these parts are down to the last 2 or 3 pieces and the guys that have them know it and charge accordingly.

 

As I am in 4 years now making head gaskets for Ferrari models that will actually work.... and have yet to have anything in my hands at this point.... I have paid my dues in this area.

The Cometic gaskets are build with known good materials but are water jet cut to shape and a .015" thick chamber eyelet pressed into place, they are not multilayer sandwiched gaskets unless MLS type are specified. The MLS gaskets Demand a perfectly smooth deck and head, something we do not have by design. Using either on the Ferrari's is wrought with problems and I refuse to do it. I have a very nice stack of nicely made Cometics on the shelf for the Ferrari's that will never be used as the heads distort enough to pull valves off their seats when they are torqued in place.

Depending on the Maser engine being done, you are right to have the concerns you do. I am just finishing a Sebring engine where the copper flame ring and rubber surround gave way to what I believe is a one piece Cometic by choice of the owner. The head distorts in a completely different manner when a compressible gasket is used compared to individual copper rings that compress only .0004" under 100#'s of head nut torque. With cams running in the heads, what happens to the bottom of the head is also transferred into the cam bores..... a very bad thing when expected distortion changes from original design. It required me to set up 8 dial indicators on the Sebring engine to torque the head down and that amounted to the last time I will go down that road.

The oil transfer port is no big thing, we had to deal with those leaks on the 250 engines for years when we were stuck with gaskets not having the copper crush ring. It surely is something to watch for but not a deal breaker as it usually amounts to a seep, not a leak. Same for the Dirko sealing beads, they are there for good reason but also amount to little more than seeps when not in place, seeps that make some 2v 308 heads near impossible to remove when it gets to the stud area. The combustion chamber eyelet design, that is the one that would concern me albeit the Cometics have been used on turbo engines and they have held up to date. Sealing the chamber AND still having straight cam bores with valves that remain sealed, that is the quest I have found difficult if not impossible to obtain. This is the point where having an old guy doing the work, that has seen it all...... a warm fuzzy feeling if these issues were dealt with.

The price..... once problems like this are viewed in their entirety it makes the OEM style gaskets look like a bargain if they would work. In our case they do not and I am in some 300 hours at this point correcting it.

 

The Cometic folks are a very nice bunch to work with, I tried real hard to make what they made for me work but in the end there were too many sacrifices I refused to accept. It sure is worth trying them as long as they are in place as you had experienced eyes doing the job.

All of these aluminum engines are more like putty than a solid once you start looking and measuring them very closely, they grow and shrink a great deal.

Many of the old Cosworth and CanAm race engines (as well as the F50) used a Nitrogen filled "Cooper Ring" that actually was elastic to a point. A brilliant design but it required extensive machining to adapt and was better suited for engines designed for their use. I cant remember ever having a single failure of one of those in my years of using them on race engines.

I believe the B Turbo engine used an Elring gasket as OE. These Elring gaskets are one of the most mis understood, ultra complex gaskets made to date and are far from easily duplicated.... been there.... still am there but now within eyesight of an end.

 

Dave,
when using indicators, are you adjusting the torque figures to account for distortion, or how do you cmpensate?
what/where do you measure?

I'm always curious to learn more about the intricacies of aluminum.

 

Hard to say without seeing it and knowing that engine well, I do not.

Did the original have a combustion chamber eyelet, a flame ring or both? Most of the Cometics I have dealt with (non MLS type) only have an eyelet and it is dead soft tin. That said, I know they have held up to many turbo applications from what I am told.

Sure would have been nice to match the bore size a bit closer but Cometic has a limited range of the eyelet sizes, maybe a match was not available. As a rule I do not like leaving that much of a liner edge exposed to a flame front unless there is a gasket in place to pull some of the heat away.

 

Dave,

That's it I remember you telling me this but I forgot. It makes sense why I don't have a problem with this because I don't have the tools to check for the distortion and have been ignorant of the potential problem. Do you remember at your shop when I was drooling over your OEM Ferrari line bore tool that I had never seen before? Around here with all the 350 chevys being done I'm lucky to get the block and head bores straight when they are apart. I never thought to check them assembled. But that's why they pay you the "big bucks."

What I don't understand in all this is how could Ferrari deliver the cars with good gaskets/engine but yet be unable to supply the maintenance item in the future? I think you said you know the OEM supplier but for some reason they can't make the gaskets right.

 

I have never had success with any Hylomar product. But on Headgaskets I commit another sin which is liberal use of copper gasket spray. There is a reason not to use copper but I can't remember what that is either. I have used it on every engine I've ever rebuilt with 100% success. I did learn the copper spray from a old Ferrari mechanic and race crew chief who was a genius at knowing when you could substitute a nail for a cotter pin to keep your race car going so copper spray is not my idea.

Here is a sample but there are others:

http://www.amazon.com/Permatex-80697-Copper-Gasket-Sealant/dp/B000HBNUDQ

 

I remember the visit well and am still awaiting and looking forward to the next. I was hoping to make it down your way this spring but given the political climate (FC thread) at the time I felt that was best re thought and canceled the plans to drag the IMSA out there to flog around in. Another time perhaps.

Big Bucks..... must be a relative term. One day, when I grow up........ I was shocked to see an engine with 2% leakdown total go to 14-18% when the heads were torqued down with non stock gaskets in place. The easy answer would have been to open up the valve guide clearance enough to keep the valves seated and do my best impression of Stevie Wonder looking skyward. Given the effort this has required, I wish now I could have mustered the courage to have turned a blind eye to this. Consumer acceptable, many hands held out looking for a margin, the push to make a very complex gasket cheaper... take your pick or go with all the above.

I am having Elring build the gaskets to my specific exclusive spec's. Four years of getting up at 3AM to deal with Germany on this matter is plenty enough for me and this quest. After learning what I did about the very fine points of head gasket design and all of the oddities and special requirements of the Ferrari engines of the last 3 decades... I could see no other alternative other than have the OEM manufacturer make these for me due to their knowledge of the design. Great plan if anyone at Elring today had any knowledge of decades old designs....... a wishful thought that proved wrong but at least they had the original blueprints to start with, a small consolation as it turns out.

 

Yes another time. The heck with politics. Boys should just go out and have fun. We got three racetracks within 150 miles that will test your manhood. The 550 is ready for all comers and if you don't get out here soon the 358 will be sold. The boys are trying but have no buyers. When it does sell I hope it stays in Socal and hits the local tracks.

I'm bummed out though. Lex Carson from Moton is not with them anymore due to a Moton buyout by AST. There was probably a non-compete clause on departure. I need to have my motons revalved and have to use another guy he suggested. But like you Lex is "top of the heap." Now I have to hope the job gets done right with a new guy. Maybe I'll build myself a shock dyno...

I'll come drop buy your shop when I'm in colorado again for the ski season. I'll get you really drunk and you can tell me all the secrets of head gasket design. Regards!

 

Heck, I am still recovering from when Mr and Mrs Plugzit sat on the back deck. We were able to solve most of the worlds problems but it required 3 of my semi anual drink tickets to be cashed in. You think there couldnt be anything more boring than Hose or Electrical Connectors...... ? BUDDY, let me tell ya, that is raw excitement compared to gaskets and Static/Dynamic block and head distortion!

My hope is by this winter all of the fundamental, boring base work will be done, the dyno will be in and then the Fun Fluff, Cool Pictures Stuff can be started. As you well know, one without the other is simply a gernade with the pin pulled and that would be no good for anyone.

I have been prodded enough now that this winter sees work start on developing the BMW race engines alongside the Ferrari's. If someone would have suggested this to be possible a few years back...... One of my new hires is a really bad influence and along with him are a few customers. Bruce W is sharpening his stick right about now and has offered a reward for photo's showing a Panzer in the shop.