Harley-Davidson Blackline

Thing about the 883 is the it's basically still using the old Evo motor in 883 or 1200cc's, where as the younger buyers are going for power cruisers like the M109r, VTX1800 and Warrior. So I think they would need to use the Twin cam 96B to get the power cruiser crowd.

But you can already get a Street Bob or a Fat Bob or just a Dyna Wide Glide and save $1k to $4k over the Blackline which is stripped down of everything. Plus, the rubber mounted engine really is a pretty big deal, I think. Old skool guys like to say they prefer rigid mount motors, but only people in denial really think that. I am amazed they would rigid mount a motor on a bike designed for new-to-the-brand riders.

Like I said, I can't complain, I manufacture parts for these bikes, so an expensive stripped down scoot is music to my ears. I'll make stuff for 'em and it'll sell like hotcakes. I'm just surprised they'd do that

 

I have two Harleys and when I ride, I wear Draggin Jeans, Sidi boots, a Vanson Drifter jacket (plain black) and my AGV Rossi Sun and Moon helmet.

EVERY TIME I show up for ANY ride, people look at me like I am crazy. I think they probably wonder what the point of riding is if nobody can see my Biker Scowl (tm) and my Badass Beanie (tm). LOL.

 

They look at you funny because you are one of eighteen heterosexual males on this planet that actually know the brand of clothes they wear.

 

At least Porsche and HD are on the same wavelength now.

Black paint + empty marketing campaign = $$$

 

I think $15K is a good price on this bike, they are targeting the younger experienced riders, and when you look at what other makes are offering this demographic, price wise its right on par.

 

LOL!

 

Every rider knows the brand of clothes they wear

My get-up is pretty neutral... looks like jeans and boots and a leather jacket... no wild colors and no HD logos anywhere. I laugh in my helmet when I see these guys with skulls and knives and dragons and stuff all over their bikes, then you stop and they are checking their E-Trade account or texting their wife to ask if it's OK to stay out an hour later than planned.

 

Somebody who gets what I was first trying to say .

Pete

 

Hmmm ...:

Sorry no contest for the younger rider, and if they are not into such a racy bike:

$5,000 cheaper and a better bike which ever way you look at it, and riders DO tour (the term the rest of the world uses for cruising) on Ducati's like the Monster or Multistrada (or Triumphs, BMWs, etc.).

Oh and if they really want that weird sitting on the rear wheel experience they can now buy the Ducati Diavel which has a motor that is actually balanced and has 162hp, and real braking power but yes more expensive slightly at $16995 (http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/577/8503/Motorcycle-Article/Ducati-Prices-Diavel-at--16-995.aspx)

I think they are up against it now that Buell no longer exists. The V-Rod was a step in the right direction but they need to go much further. Ducati and Triumph are showing you can do this without loosing who they are ...
Pete

 

not everyone buys a bike to go fast, who says the monster is a better bike then the harley? I own 2 ducatis, one of them happens to be a monster, I also own a harley, if the monster was such a great bike why do I still why my harley? truth is riding a motorcycle is not just about performance, there is so much more to it.

young buyers like the stripped down custom chopper look, thats what the rock stars ride, thats what you see on all the TV shows. the VROD is a great bike, but it just does not have the same appeal. the sportster is a great entry level bike, but its always going to be an entry level bike, so its not going to appeal to more experienced riders.

with this blackline, harley finally has a bike that appeals to the younger rider, its got that chopper look, but its not going to have any of the draw backs of a custom bike, and you dont have to build it.

 

Understood.

But young people like technology ... iPods, etc.
Pete

 

correction, young people like hype..

 

No, no, no, no!

I've owned many Harleys, starting from my 20's right through my 40's (although to be fair - I no longer own anything but my '67 Honda CL77), I've spent time at the factory, I've read books about the business (including the highly recommended "Well Made in America: Lessons from Harley-Davidson on Being the Best"), and I have spent my 20+ year career in Marketing and Product Management. A bike to me is nothing more than a widget - the key is really in the strategy. If you understand product strategy, then you can figure out how to win in the market.

Harley is in the same predicament as was Cadillac 15 - 20 years ago - they have to cultivate a younger buyer. This is well known, of course, but you can't do that by building a bike for the same demographic you sell into today. Say what you want, but a cruiser IS NOT FOR THE YOUNGER BUYER anymore than a 1986 Cadillac Brougham is the equivalent of a BMW 3 series.

With the Japanese manufacturers encroaching on their space, they've backed themselves into a corner. They still build bikes for old people. What they need - and have ALWAYS needed - is a line of Sport Bikes.

Before you flame me - let me explain the concept of mutually assured destruction. A long time ago, Gillette made disposable razors and BIC made disposable pens - no overlap or direct competition. One day, Gillette decided - "we're going to make disposable pens", with the intent to take share from BIC and drive incremental revenue. The smart people at BIC said "Oh no you don't - we're going to make disposable razors", thereby creating mutually assured destruction, which dictated Gillette wouldn't engage in a price war against BIC and vice versa.

Harley is now exposed. The Japanese manufacturers can do it cheaper, faster, and arguably better. Without a portfolio of bikes to appeal to a wider range of customers - younger customers that WANT sporty, great looking bikes, they are doomed to be a niche player.

They have attempted - and failed - each time they have tried. Buell's were just too quirky to be mainstream. The VROD is still too expensive and more cruiser than sport. The best (and subsequently worst) move they made was the MV Agusta acquisition. It was a stroke of genius in that there was much cheaper to acquire than create from scratch. Better yet, having an established name in the sport bike world, MV Agusta would not be looked at as a "poseur" bike.

Why the hell they bailed is beyond me. I am an investor in Harley, so I know the company well - the could have made it work, but didn't understand the market enough. The hiring of Keith Wandell, in my opinion, was the beginning of the end. He was the first CEO that wasn't part of the original buy back from AMF, and I think that was a mistake.

Will there always be a Harley? I believe so. Will they ever be a dominant player again? Time will tell, but unless they can start cultivating that younger set - and this bike IS NOT THE BIKE TO DO IT - then I don't see it. Sad.

 

the sport bike market is down 90% from where it was 10 years ago, it does not make sense for harley to build a sport bike at this time. all the other manufactures are focusing their attention on other models. I agree its a marketing issue, but developing a whole new sport bike model is not going to work. Harley had the buell line for for many years, they made superb bikes but they did not sell, even though they offered comparable performance and were priced cheaper then the competition.

my theory on it, for the last 15 or so years, the vast majority of people that wanted to buy a sport bike, want to buy a jap sport bike. because it is what everyone else in the group is riding. BMW Aprilia ducati all offer very good bikes, but so often the young sport bike buyer passes up these bikes.

 

Having ridden a few of the air-cooled Buells I will be generous and refer to them as an aquired taste. Normally I would say the Sportster-derived engine is a vibrating pile of garbage and completely unsuitable to a bike with any modern sporting aspirations. The Rotax-made Helicon engine was a vast improvement and the 1125r was the first Buell I ever considered actually buying.

IMO many Harley dealers did not want Buell to start with, didn't know how to sell to their customer demographic, and the brand was poorly marketed by the parent company. We always heard about how innovative they were, people just saw them as strange. Don't tell me about how the belt drive is superior if the vibrating motor blurs your vision sitting at a stoplight. The Helicon is an engine Buell should have had a decade ago.

The abrupt closure of Buell continues to leave a bad taste in many potential customer's mouths. Funny thing is before the closure they were just another brand to me, but came to symbolize the stupidity and short-sighted nature of current H-D upper management. However, to their credit they did not close MV after investing nine figures into the company, but instead gave it back to Castiglioni. Good for MV and sportbike enthusiasts, bad for Harley investors.

As for sportbikes down 90%, I would like to see some statistics on that. Overall sales of all bikes are down roughly 40% from 2009, which were down 40% from 2008. Obviously a huge decline, but not 90%. Perhaps younger buyers more inclined to buy a sportbike have a tougher time today qualifying for credit, although the Blackline will have the same issue if it is to be sold to younger buyers.

 

In my circles, my sport bike friends have been riding dual sport and/or dirt bikes lately...including me. In the last year I have ridden my KTM 3-4 times per month whereas I have ridden my street bike only 1-2 a month. Withe Talanta area traffic the way in is, it's so much more fun toride the FSRs in the Chattahoochee National Forest that ride with SUVs surrounding you...

 

Harley had Buell by the balls. They couldn't do anything without the approval of H-D first. While I'm sure it was their idea to pursue Rotax for the 1125 engine, it definetly went past the higher ups at H-D for approval 1st. Everything you see on Buells that everyone complained about (belt drive, etc) was all stuff that was mandated by H-D.

 

You are thinking short term, which is not the way to succeed in business. Forget the current state of the market, it's irrelevant for the long term - this is marketing strategy 101. They a complete portfolio, which means they NEED a sport bike. They CAN'T home grow it - too expensive. Has to be via acquisition. As I said, Buell was too quirky - wasn't accepted. This is why companies like Cisco have grow-by-acquisition strategies. If done properly, they work.

It has nothing to do with Japanese or where manufactured. It has everything to do with what is perceived as an enjoyable, consumable item. Ducati's 916 was classic example - was it Japanese? NOPE. Did it kick ass? YEP, and put Ducati back on the map after nearly going under (of course they were subequently taken private by TPG, but that's another story).

This is purely about marketing strategy - as I said "widgets"...or a game of chess. I just happen to know about bikes because I've ridden them since I am a child. There are always exceptions, but I can assure you in my 20 years of marketing, this situation has been seen time and time again. Without a complete portfolio to stave off MAD, they WILL lose. Don't believe me? Read every motorcycling journalist - they'll concur with me 100%.

Read Wendelin Wiedeking's view of Porsche - same situation as Harley. That's why you now have a Cayenne and a Panamera. It saved Porsche because they couldn't survive building sports cars only. That's my point.

Marketing 101...marketing 101.

 

Bingo - well said on all counts.

If any of you are in business or strategy, you'll get these points. You have to play to WIN, not cower back into a hole that is your comfort zone. Few companies can get away with this, very few.

Remember not too long ago, Apple was a computer company. Are they anymore? Nope - they are a media company (iTunes) and a telecom company (iPhone). They completely reinvented themselves when they realized they would never beat the "Wintel" dominance. Now Apple is the dominant player...checkmate!

Harley BLEW IT. If they pulled their heads out of their rear, they'd make a move on a KTM or Ducati - whether acquisition or merger. It's the only way they will survive.

 

HD is going down a bad road there not attracting younger owners. There prices are simply too high for what you get. The old jap bike stereotypes are going away where the HD buyer has morphed into a yuppie or wannabe sons of anarchy dude.

 

I looked at a Sportster about 8 years ago and I was amazed that for $12k there were no provisions for a passenger. I would have to spend another $500 so my wife could ride along. Then after I told the salesman that would trade my Ducati 748 more than once we went outside to look at it. He was about 20 yards away and said "I'll give you $1500 for a Jap bike like that." I said it's Italian and a 5yr old 748 is worth a lot more than $1500. He then said "Not to us, we can't sell them Jap bikes.". So much wrong there I just left. The Blackline looks like yet another HD I have no desire to own.

 

Porsche’s claim is that the Cayenne, Panamera, and the new Hybrid 918 ARE proper "sports cars."
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Because they can't afford them, not because they don't want/lust for them. IMHO.

 

+1 also up until recently the Ducs had a HP disadvantage and they were only looking at the $/HP to justify the cost.