430 - Gt3 vs Scuderia | Page 6 | FerrariChat

430 Gt3 vs Scuderia

Discussion in '360/430' started by redhammer, Dec 20, 2020.

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  1. RichardCH

    RichardCH F1 Rookie
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    and even better https://fastestlaps.com/makes here a comparison across multiple tracks around the world shows the SCUD only very marginally faster than a F430 despite the tires and the 991.1 GT3 RS significantly faster in every case.

    So how can all these facts be wrong ?
     
  2. RichardCH

    RichardCH F1 Rookie
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    #127 RichardCH, Jan 18, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2021
    Freshmeat pls provide multiple comparable independent global track time data, just so we know, that you know, what you are talking about, as you obviously don't and that I am living in my own Little "World" but you might struggle a bit as here is the Official Track Data from all over the Big World .... not a selection of unofficial Youtube vids, perhaps don't be so aggressive next time mate .....
     
  3. RichardCH

    RichardCH F1 Rookie
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    #128 RichardCH, Jan 18, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2021
    After all, the SCUD is a top racing car but it seems it is, strangely, not very good (at all) on any Global racing circuits, whichever one you choose & the F430, is very officially, right up there
     
  4. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

    Aug 30, 2011
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    Nothing on record officially or unofficially shows an F430 ever going faster than a scud on a circuit or in a straight line. End of stupidity.

    Off to your own little world now, toodles.
     
  5. RichardCH

    RichardCH F1 Rookie
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    #130 RichardCH, Jan 19, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
    I never said the F430 was faster, you can read right ? so please stop lying, I said it was almost comparable which it very clearly is factually, for those of us whom live in the real world and its been officially proven and recorded.
     
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  6. fedcoin

    fedcoin Formula Junior
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    I don't think you are man enough for a car like this.
     
  7. RichardCH

    RichardCH F1 Rookie
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    I owned a SCUD for 9 years, tvm
     
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  8. E60 M5

    E60 M5 Moderator
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    fedcoin and RichardCH stay away from personal attacks, this is your warning
     
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  9. dustman

    dustman F1 Veteran
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    Back on track...what about 16M’s?
     
  10. RichardCH

    RichardCH F1 Rookie
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    E60 I was the one who was initially attacked by Freshmeat, please read the thread, thanks for your understanding
     
  11. Scottslaw

    Scottslaw Formula Junior

    Here is my two cents on this, for what its worth (i.e., about two cents). I love all sports cars and appreciate the differences (which is why I target older cars that permit me to keep a few around at once, rather than one super cool, new-ish exotic). And I happen to totally love gt3's (I'm on my 4th). I've also had lambos and 911 turbos, modded m3's, etc.... And from over 20 years with sports car ADD, there is one fact I know for sure, from real world experience, and that is that comparing internet track times, dyno graphs, and even youtube roll races doesn't give you a very accurate picture. That is because a truly objective, fair and equal comparison is pretty difficult. Track condition (is it damp?), tire spec, tire condition (are they new? 50% worn? 90% worn?), state of tune of the engine (how was it maintained, how are the plugs, how are the 02 sensors and is the air filter dirty?), atmospheric conditions (is it hot, cold, wet?), driver skill (this is a big one...even in a straight line!), all play a massive role in how a car performs on a given day and in a given situation. And these variables are even more significant when you are comparing two cars that are already similar in terms of weight and power! And then add in the subjective owner preferences/egos/self-interests/justifications, and the picture gets even murkier. And this is not a knock on any poster on this thread...we all tend to love and prefer and have a subconscious desire to justify the car we currently have and the (significant) expenditures we have made. Its natural and normal. I do it too!

    One real world illustration. I remember years ago when I had my modded 996 turbo (500 crank hp), and a stock-sounding s2000 came up on me and wanted to play. He honked three times, got a very slight jump, and I literally could not reel him by the time I had to let off due to traffic, due to a combination of his jump, my turbo lag, his N.A. linear power delivery, and the shortness of the "race." Yet I would bet $10,000 that guy went back home and told his friends he killed a 911 turbo. Was his car objectively "faster" than mine? No way. But in that particular "test" you could say it was.

    Another example. I track my gt3's and will never forget sharing the track in my nicely set up 997 gt3 with a (bone stock motor) late model Miata (on r-comps). Literally could not catch him, even in the straights. Yup, he was an awesome driver with tons of experience at that track. His corner speeds were so much higher it literally took me the entire straight to get close again. And I had him by like 200 hp. So, unless its a same driver/same track/same day kind of situation, I don't think you can definitively conclude that such and such car is faster or slower or within ___ seconds of another. Just too many variables. That is what makes this hobby so fun, and why I always purchase based on "feel" and emotion and "fun factor" rather than published zero-to-sixty or track times. Hell, one of my favorite cars ever was a gen 1 Boxster s and that car had barely 250hp!!!!

    With all that said, and with all due respect to RichardCH (who I appreciate and love his input and posts), and in full acknowledgement that my next statement serves my own interests/biases/feelings as a current scud owner, I have to disagree that the 430 and f430 are "equals' on the same tires. I just don't believe that is possible. And my conclusion is not due to personal testing or research or comparing track times or internet videos. Its because if that were true, it would mean that Ferrari, despite its best efforts and lots of experience in this area, produced a "special" track-focused version of an f430 with higher compression, more power, more torque (just barely) less weight, a significantly faster-shifting transmission, and a host of other little tweaks and "upgrades," that performed exactly and objectively the SAME as the car car it was supposed to upgrade. And if that were true, you can bet the automotive press would have been all over that "fact" and the 430 Scuderia would be derided as a total joke and a complete failure by Ferrari. Just not possible (all things being equal!).

    So, to each his own, "love the one you brung," and be happy!
     
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  12. RichardCH

    RichardCH F1 Rookie
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    #137 RichardCH, Jan 19, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
    Journalists are flown out to Italy, wined and dined to embrace & help sell the "new next best thing" but it seems Ferrari couldn't even "fix" the lap times at their own test track Fiorano and if there is anywhere where the racing SCUD should of massively outperformed the F430 it was here but it simply Did Not as is illustrated throughout the rest of the world's racing circuits

    Even the track based Challenge Stradale is slower than the standard road going F430 @ Fiorano on semi slicks, but having also owned a Challenge Stradale for 7 years, that is no surprise either. The standard F430 is a massively underrated car ! As fast as a F50 !
     
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  13. Scottslaw

    Scottslaw Formula Junior

    That actually brings up a good point and another variable: track configuration. Track layout can affect the perception of a car's performance. No better example of this principle than to look at autocross results. Then notice how many 2.0l 914's finish above a hellcat or z06.
     
  14. RichardCH

    RichardCH F1 Rookie
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    #139 RichardCH, Jan 19, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
    Sure indeed but my point is if that you look here on https://fastestlaps.com/makes on various racing tracks of wildly different configurations, around the world, the results are pretty much the same as Fiorano. The SCUD is faster on a track but not 20%, not 10%, not 5% but between 1-3% AND ONLY with much faster track tires, so the SCUD is oversold for what it is. Meanwhile, the 991.1 GT3 RS is massively faster than the SCUD on any track you choose. These are all factual conclusions. Please prove otherwise, if you disagree, with real world detailed facts.
     
  15. Scottslaw

    Scottslaw Formula Junior

    Richard, see that's just it. I'm not trying to "prove" anything because I don't think a resort to these type of published figures does that. Too many variables. And I certainly never tried to argue that a scud is 20% or 10% or 5% faster. But the Fastest Laps website published figures do prove one of my points, namely, that different tracks favor different cars, but those figures don't necessarily mean that one care is better/faster/awesomer than another.

    For example, the scud n-ring time per that site is 7:39. That is 16 seconds faster than the f430 (and I'll note there is no reference on the site to the tires used, so who knows). That's the difference between 94th place on the list and 167th. I didn't do that math to determine if that is 2% or 5% or 1% faster, but most car guys would agree that 16 seconds is an appreciable difference on that track (at least on that track, on that day, with those drivers, with those cars), and that such a difference would translate into a very real "seat of the pants" difference. Indeed, I know this to be true because one of my other cars, a 996 gt3, has the EXACT SAME ring time as the f430 (7:55).

    Why does that matter? Because I can tell you right now, having owned three 996 gt3's, and as the current owner of a very highly modified 996 gt3 (200lbs weight reduction, re-geared transmission, bmc filter, ipd plenum, full 997 cup exhuast, headers, cats, etc...), any f430 (scud or otherwise) running on all 8 cylinders that is not in limp mode would absolutely SMOKE my 996 gt3 from a seat of the pants perspective, or in a straight line roll race. Its not even close. Yet, on the n-ring they were dead even (at least on those days, with those drivers, with those cars). That's my point. Trying to objectively quantify performance in this way is just not possible, and is often not reflective of the seat of the pants sensation from a car or its relative performance capabilities. By your argument my 996 gt3 is "nearly" as fast as my Scud (which has had a hard life LOL!), but it most certainly is not.

    As a concluding thought, my personal opinion is that if you are going to compare cars on the internet and performance of some car relative to a specific other car is important to you, the best way to do so is viewing those airstrip-style drag race roll-on videos. Now, those have to be taken with a grain of salt too because you don't know the driver skill, tire specs, state of tune of the cars, the undisclosed modifications, etc..., but at least the conditions are the same, and the roll-on format eliminates the variables involved with getting a good launch from a dead stop. And, of course, all those videos show the scud to be a competent performer in that format (and yes, the f430 spyder getting annihilated in that video above is heavier than the f430 coupe, but it also lacked a passenger whereas the scud clearly had one, unless the scud driver was in auto-mode and holding the camera at the same time!).
     
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  16. RichardCH

    RichardCH F1 Rookie
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    #141 RichardCH, Jan 19, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
    thanks the difference on the Nurenburg is of course with the 1-3% as noted and we are also considering the SCUD vs the 991.1 GT3 RS here and it seems the 991.2 GT3 RS is the 7th fasted car of all time so we can assume that the .1 RS is at least 70 places higher than the 94th placed SCUD. All these global track times are official with professional drivers, NOT Youtube amateur vids
     
  17. RichardCH

    RichardCH F1 Rookie
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    #142 RichardCH, Jan 19, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
    nothing else to say really, the facts are the facts, the SCUD is overrated vs the 50k cheaper F430 and massively slower than the 991.1GT3 RS at the same price point. These have been my consistent points all along here. Thats why I still have my "lightweight" tuned F430 Spider and swapped my SCUD for the 9,000 rpm 991.1 GT3 RS, never made a better car decision in this respect. Both the SCUD and 991.1 GT3RS are uncollectable due to high production numbers.
     
  18. Scottslaw

    Scottslaw Formula Junior

    Well, I agree with you that a 991 gt3rs is faster than a scud (I'll leave out the subjective "massively" qualifier!), and I don't think anyone has ever disagreed with that proposition, but it is two generations newer so that shouldn't surprise anyone. I have nothing bad to say about the 991/992 gt3rs platform (except that they are almost too good, too clinical, and too poised)...they are certainly epic, and I'd love to own one someday. My only point in all this was that its just doesn't "seem" possible that a standard f430 is "just as fast" as a scud if they are on the same tires, or that a scud is "overrated," regardless of what anyone reads on a track time list or website.

    I'm a trial attorney and I could easily construct a cross examination with just a few questions to illustrate the point:

    Q: Does the Scud have more horsepower and torque than a standard f430? A: Yes
    Q: Does the Scud weigh less than a standard f430? A: yes?
    Q: Does the Scud have a faster shifting transmission than a standard f430? A: yes
    Q: Does the Scud feature handling/suspension "upgrades" that are not present on a standard f430? A: yes

    If all of the above is true, what is more likely? A given track test result on a given day with a given driver on a given track is not representative of reality, or that there is some unknown and heretofore unidentified characteristic of the standard f430 at play that has nothing to do with power/handling/transmission/weight that would make the f430 perform the same? Again, I'm not bashing the f430. I love them. They are awesome, my first time driving one is what got me hooked on wanting an f430 of some variant. If I had not come across my beat-up scud on BAT for not much more than a nice f430, I would have an f430 in the garage right now, so there is no hate there at all.

    One final point about the gt3/f430/scud debate. If the be all and end for deciding what to buy and drive was a performance-per-dollar analysis, we would all be driving highly modified 996 tt's or c6 z06's. Throw $10-15k in engine modes at one of those and its going to be curtains for most other cars. But of course, we don't because there are many other factors which are important, and which vary from person to person, such as how the car looks, how it drives, how it makes you feel, its reliability, the impression others form when they see it (don't pretend we don't care about that LOL!), etc.... Yes, its about emotion and feel. And I love the rawness and personality of the scud, even if I'm not always in the mood for it.

    In the end its all good...this kind of debate is what makes the hobby fun and interesting and what makes the world go round. My neighbor with his late model mustang with aftermarket supercharger would smoke any car I have ever owned but I still don't want to to buy it!
     
  19. CoreyNJ

    CoreyNJ Formula 3
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    This is all an interesting conversation, but I think the F430 vs Scud has a lot to do with the driver and track.

    If the track is rough and you need the "bumpy road" button to keep traction while keeping the throttle response on race, the Scud will roast the F430. The scud fixes the handling issues of the f430 with the larger front wheels, but a good driver could compensate for this on most tracks.

    The weight and power differences aren't such large amounts that it can't be equalized if you had extra weight in Scud by taking a larger friend for a ride in the scud and have a lighter aftermarket exhaust on the F430. Side note: Get skinnier friends for ride alongs ;-)

    The aero is better on the Scud as well, so that will make a difference on some tracks vs others. The Ceramic brakes are bigger on the Scud compared to the F430 with the ceramic brakes so that could affect your performance on some tracks.

    All of this adds a little extra to the Scud over the F430, but reality is that 99% of all drivers would never be able to squeeze that extra performance, but for those who can the Scud is more than marginally faster car than the F430.

    As for the 996 GT3, mine is bone stock except for an RS splitter, 19" center lock wheels and a Fabspeed cold air intake. I do have the Porsche OEM cup seats which cuts a bunch of weight. In the straights my 2009 F430 is way faster, but maybe because I'm more comfortable in the Porsche, but I can take turns at much higher speeds than my F430. I do have bigger tires on the Porsche than the Ferrari and have been driving rear engine Porsches since 1987.

    Cheers,
    Corey
     
  20. DeTomasoGTS74

    DeTomasoGTS74 Formula Junior

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    Richard not following how you can call the “Scud overrated vs the $50k cheaper F430.” The market sets the price and whilst you believe it to be overrated, many more of us do not, and thus have set the delta.

    Another thing you may be missing is that its not just about the performance numbers being better, but the history, and what the car means to Ferrari (Schumacher development, first bumpy road, first mannitino, etc all at a time where Ferrari literally were at their peak in racing).

    You also have a sense of occasion and purpose when you get in the Scud or look at it from the exterior. Similar to Scott, I have several older cars but have many friends with all of the newest and best. Every single one of them is enamored with the interior, the superfast transmission and the history of the car. The feel you get in driving this car just doesn’t exist anymore even though all of their cars are much more capable. You are trying to look at everything objectively, but these emotional aspects are harder to quantify. And isn’t the emotional connection why we buy these things?


    Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  21. redcaruser

    redcaruser Formula 3
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    Have you ever seen someone who has tuned his Scuderia in the direction of the F430? No. Maybe for the reason that the Scuderia is something the F430 owners would like to have and not the other way around? This "fact" alone would make me strongly question the statement "the Scuderia is massively overrated".

    You write that the Scuderia has been inferior in every respect in terms of performance against the 991.1 GT3 RS (massively slower). Then I must be an exceptionally good driver, my Scuderia has hidden somewhere extra 100hp or my friend is absolutely incapable of moving his Porsche 991.1 GT3 RS fast enough. Because we both can't confirm your thesis. Howsoever, only one thing is clear for my friend and me: we both have an enormous amount of fun with our cars. And it would never occur to us to argue about which one would be faster or better. For us only the fun counts, the rest belongs in the "Kindergarten" drawer.
     
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  22. ShineKen

    ShineKen F1 World Champ
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    The racing stripes alone are worth $10k :).


    Here’s what some of the aesthetic parts of the car go for on the used car market:

    Scud front bumper $5k
    Scud rear bumper with carbon grill $7k
    Carbon rear diffuser $5k
    Carbon front lip $1k
    Rear hatch $5k
    Sideskirts $3k
    Wheels $5k
    Titanium lug nuts $1k
    Carbon seats $10k
    Carbon headlights $3k
    Carbon door cards $3k
    Carbon door sills $1k


    That’s already $50k in parts.


    That doesn’t include the alcantara race interior, the carbon interior package (carbon steering wheel, paddles, air vents, center console). Carbon airboxes, carbon engine bay covers, and carbon plenum.

    Doesn’t include the more powerful engine or sf2 transmission and better carbon brakes.

    Im sure there’s more I’m missing, but most importantly, the 430 Scuderia badge. That will always carry weight in the Ferrari world.


    Now if Richard wants to make a case for why the Speciale isn’t worth $150-200k premium over 458, he might have something :).
     
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  23. dustman

    dustman F1 Veteran
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    Why feed troll?
     
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  24. ShineKen

    ShineKen F1 World Champ
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    Richard has been here for a long time and has actually been very helpful ... at least when it comes to the technical aspects of the cars.

    He’s just going through a unique form of seller’s remorse :)
     
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  25. RichardCH

    RichardCH F1 Rookie
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    Whats shocks me the most is that most of this lovely equipment is surprisingly worthless, when it comes to making a SCUD faster and improving laptimes over the F430, proven on racetracks all over the world by professional drivers
     

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