Got sent to this section by 456 guys.... | FerrariChat

Got sent to this section by 456 guys....

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by dogdoc97, Feb 7, 2013.

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  1. dogdoc97

    dogdoc97 Formula Junior

    Aug 2, 2011
    711
    Atlanta, GA
    I had posted that I have been looking for a 4 seater in a F car; have had many 2 seater sports cars. I was looking at the 456 and Mondial when the 456 folks suggested the 400...so how do you guys and gals like/love your 400? It would be a weekender car; nice GT driving the back roads of Georgia,etc. thnx, Doc
     
  2. fez1238

    fez1238 Karting

    Sep 5, 2007
    170
    Video of a 412 owner driving thru the backroads of Switzerland sums it up for me more than words:

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyxFau_azsA]Ferrari 412 - YouTube[/ame]
     
  3. aidanparte

    aidanparte Formula 3

    Jul 18, 2004
    1,222
    Nice video, but the sound of the engine was quite muted.

    The 456 is the successor to the 400/412. The 400/412 is a much older design and is a more vintage experience - I must add that I have never driven a 456, but I would dearly love to own a 456M. Like the 456, the 400 is a proper GT car, not designed for tearing around narrow country lanes but for high-speed cruising. Like the 456, they are quite discrete, and having the 4 seats makes them less desirable to many people, but to a family man like myself it is ideal.

    Personally, I've always loved the design of the 400, it has a great V12 engine and is quite useable. Servicing and parts are expensive though. All these comments apply to the 456 too!

    Aidan
     
  4. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

    Mar 25, 2012
    1,078
    London
    Full Name:
    Russell Schacter
    Completely agree with Aidan's comments - you really need to have a passion for this model to own one. They can be very rewarding but probably not for the typical Ferrari owner as these cars are anything but typical.

    If you love the shape and have wanted one for ever (like me) there's no contest with other cars - you have to have one even though you know that one day it'll probably bite you in the arse and sink its teeth so deep that you'll need plastic surgery (of the credit card type!).

    Potential money pit they may be but for me it's the only Ferrari I've ever wanted (excluding all the obvious predecessors that I couldn't afford without a massive lottery win) and I'm very happy thank you !
     
  5. dogdoc97

    dogdoc97 Formula Junior

    Aug 2, 2011
    711
    Atlanta, GA
    Thnx for the info ,can you guys suggest a year that was best or somewhat less troublesome,lol if such a thing exists, Doc
     
  6. Ashman

    Ashman Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Sep 5, 2002
    31,629
    MA
    Full Name:
    John
    Short answer is that I don't think there is a clear winner.

    The earliest 365GT4 2+2 and 400 series are carbureted with six side draft Webers that appeal to a lot of fans. Removing them for valve adjustments and then synchronizing them can be pretty labor intensive and therefore expensive, just like on the 365 GTC/4, which has the same engine and carb setup.

    The 400i series from 1979-85 has the Bosch K-Jetronic fuel injection that a lot of people (like me) prefer because it is comparatively trouble free and easy to tune. The series 1 cars (1979-82) have wood accents on the dash and fewer electronic switches. The series 2 cars have a more modern looking interior and ventilation system.

    The 412 series has more horsepower (340 vs. 310), ABS and some other updates but some people don't like the slightly higher trunk line.

    Throughout the series, around 2/3 rds of the cars have the GM TH400 automatic transmission. They are much easier to find than the rarer 5 speeds.

    All of them are comparatively rare in number since production levels were much lower in those years than from the 90's forward plus, being all gray market cars, not as many are available in the U.S. Also, these cars are all at least 23 years old and as old as 40 years old so the condition and history of these cars can vary quite a lot.
     
  7. dogdoc97

    dogdoc97 Formula Junior

    Aug 2, 2011
    711
    Atlanta, GA
    I have been looking for a 412 BUT I cannot find one Stateside, several in Europe.

    The 456 board talks of the Auto trans as a problem, folks love them BUT the "word" I hear is that parts are difficult to source should it need an overhaul.....
     
  8. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

    Mar 25, 2012
    1,078
    London
    Full Name:
    Russell Schacter
    I have a couple of classic American cars over here in the UK and have had any work I can't personally handle done by an American car specialist/friend for the last 25 years.

    He tells me that he's done a few rebuilds on 400 gearboxes without too much trouble and inferred that this is basically a standard TH400 box - I may be mistaken here. Possibly the 456 guys are referring to the manual box which IS expensive to repair and (I believe) certain parts are harder to locate than others.

    If anyone knows otherwise please post a reply as it'll no doubt be relevant if and when my 'box goes pop (not that I think it will to be honest but the oil cooler pipes rotted out and split last month and I almost lost drive at one point - it seems fine now but maybe some damage was caused).
     
  9. dogdoc97

    dogdoc97 Formula Junior

    Aug 2, 2011
    711
    Atlanta, GA
    Now when I say they do not like...many guys on the 456 section love the auto and say its NOT a probelm BUT the guys that have the 6 speed say stay away from the auto...it was an American tranny I believe BUT parts are supposed to be scarce; then again some folks posted that it was not an issue. One thing I have learned on the chat board, 10 folks, 10 diffferent opinions, thnx! Doc
     
  10. Ashman

    Ashman Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Sep 5, 2002
    31,629
    MA
    Full Name:
    John
    My car is the 5 speed manual but from everything that I have heard about the GM TH400 automatic transmission is that it is very reliable, parts are plentiful and any GM dealer can rebuild it.

    The automatic transmission on 400/400i/412 is about as worryfree as a Ferrari can get.
     
  11. dogdoc97

    dogdoc97 Formula Junior

    Aug 2, 2011
    711
    Atlanta, GA
    #11 dogdoc97, Feb 9, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2013
    The 400 I was looking at just got listed as pending/ sold; can you guys take a look at the ones on www.hemmings.com and tell me what you think of those cars; you guys may see something on the pics etc, thanks, Doc PS I could not get it to link,maybe someone can post them here,thnx twice!
     
  12. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

    Mar 25, 2012
    1,078
    London
    Full Name:
    Russell Schacter
    Now I reread your post I can kind of almost see that you were referring to the 456 auto trannie.

    Because we were discussing the 400 series here it made no sense to me at the time that you were talking about the 456 auto box as it had no relevance here.

    We Brits are easily confused !
     
  13. dogdoc97

    dogdoc97 Formula Junior

    Aug 2, 2011
    711
    Atlanta, GA
    BUT thnx for the help; and thanks for the listings; I had seen one of these on Hemmings,Doc
     
  14. 180 Out

    180 Out Formula 3

    Jan 4, 2012
    1,206
    San Leandro, CA
    Full Name:
    Bill Henley
    The automatic is indeed nothing more or less than a GM TH400. The unit in my '83 self-destructed last August and I simply took it to the nearest tranny shop and they rebuilt it. I was surprised at the price of the case -- $400 -- this being a used part and it having been cast in the tens of millions of units during the 25-30 years it was in production. So I guess even TH400 parts are becoming scarcer, but far from No Longer Available. The guys also told me that the Ferrari-specific accumulators *are* NLA. The parts they used in my car have given me a much harder shift than I used to have. You have to admit, a 4000 lb car with 6500 rpm shift points was not the usual application for a TH-400. It may be that some tranny shop could have done a better job of finding accumulators that match the Ferrari's needs. But I can live with it. I actually enjoy the tire chirp on the 1-2 shift, when I floor the pedal. The other thing they told me was that they had to grind off an ear or something from the case to make it fit in the Ferrari transmission tunnel. Also, when you're removing a tranny from a 400 you have to detach the half-shafts and slide the tranny, torque tube, and differential rearward as a unit. This is much more difficult than a front-engine, rear drive Detroit car is. The charge for this repair was $2,800, which is a little on the high side. But this is the Berkeley California area, where ground rent, labor costs, and the costs of government red tape are higher than most places.
     
  15. full_garage

    full_garage Formula 3
    Owner

    Feb 15, 2010
    2,241
    Sarasota Florida
    Full Name:
    Jay
    I just did the auto transmission filter and pan gasket on my 412- I think the kit was $8 at my local NAPA.

    The autos on the 400/412 are indeed bulletproof. The auto on the 456 is basically proprietary parts. I looked at a few 456's before buying my 412. TOTALLY different experiences.

    a 412 is a "new" vintage Ferrari. a 456 is an "Old" modern Ferrari.

    If you really like the style and period appeal of the 400/412 then by all means go for one- stupidly cheap to buy right now and very reliable cars once you get them sorted and DRIVE them religiously.
     
  16. Highmiler

    Highmiler Formula Junior

    Dec 8, 2010
    414
    Missouri
    Full Name:
    Greg
    Also, this is the transmission of choice for the V-8 powered off road pick up trucks running the likes of the Baja 1000. Don't worry about the automatic.
    Greg
     
  17. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 23, 2007
    8,450
    North Pole AK
    If you have a TH400 in your car and it's in good shape I'd be more worried about an asteroid hitting the earth than the transmission going bad.
     
  18. dogdoc97

    dogdoc97 Formula Junior

    Aug 2, 2011
    711
    Atlanta, GA
    I was just wondering if I could not find a manual and bought an auto what would I expect..thnx guys!

    Anyone like any of the ones listed on Auto Classifieds - Hemmings Auto Classifieds feature cars for sale nation wide | Hemmings Motor News I know the grey one is a F chatter on here, anyone looked at the others; the links someone posted ARE NOT the ones currently on Hemmings that I am looking at. The one at Crave Luxury cars in Texas is nice to me; and I LOVE THOSE SEATS/LEATHER BUT the website says its a pending sale...Doc
     
  19. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 23, 2007
    8,450
    North Pole AK
    I would be worth your time to drive a few. Stop by in the summer and we can go for a spin. All the different variants have different personalities.
     
  20. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

    Mar 25, 2012
    1,078
    London
    Full Name:
    Russell Schacter
    A VERY different driving experience.

    It depends on what you want from the car. If you're looking for a more sporty driving experience go for a manual but if you enjoy a relaxed and effortless ride go for an auto.

    Sure, the manual will be more rewarding when you're in the mood but these cars were designed as an executive express and the auto fulfills that role very well. I've driven and love both but currently own an auto and if i'm honest I really enjoy it. In the ideal world all TH400's would benefit from a fourth gear to reduce engine revs in top but they're from a different era when most auto boxes were 3 speed so it's to be expected.

    For real world driving I think the auto wins hands down but the manual gearing is more versatile and may be better suited for track days and fast blasting around (although i believe some members here who own both auto and manual cars think otherwise). They will also be more economical on long runs due to lower revs in top gear.

    To me the auto has both pluses and minuses but then so does the manual. Test drive both, decide what you want from the car and buy the very best example you can find.

    Alternatively get both - these cars can become a bit of an obsession and I intend to get a manual as well ASAP !
     
  21. dogdoc97

    dogdoc97 Formula Junior

    Aug 2, 2011
    711
    Atlanta, GA
    Not sure I will be out your way soon,Doc
     
  22. dogdoc97

    dogdoc97 Formula Junior

    Aug 2, 2011
    711
    Atlanta, GA
    You guys are all very helpful, thnx, Doc
     
  23. Highmiler

    Highmiler Formula Junior

    Dec 8, 2010
    414
    Missouri
    Full Name:
    Greg
    Doc,
    So far no one has directly addressed the hobby nature of these old girls.
    They need some love after all these years of sitting around in someone's garage as a trophy. Be prepared to fuss with details and gain enjoyment from sprucing up the car.
    Fussing with details means getting everything to work again, casting out electrical gremlins and generally being aware that the years since they were new have accumulated.

    I think everyone here will agree that even the most supurb example will have its opportunities to excel. To me, that is part of the fun of ownership.

    Greg
     
  24. dogdoc97

    dogdoc97 Formula Junior

    Aug 2, 2011
    711
    Atlanta, GA
    Everyone here has been very helpful. John A called me today to talk to me about the 400 in general.

    I just am on the fence; I think I would enjoy the 400 more than the 456,I love classic stuff albeit the 456 seems newer tecno wise and sleeker. For me, when I Was talking to the Mondial folks they kept using the term "family fun factor". I only have one child, a 8 year old. He loves cars already and my wife is indifferent; she just assume the whole lot go up in smoke,lol. The Mondial just seemd like it would meet all the requirements.

    I just am wondering if the 400 or the 456 would not seem like a "special fun car out" on a Saturday nite but more of a ride in a luxury sedan.

    There is no doubt that the Mondial says
    "sports car" and the 400/456 says you earned it old man, drive in style,lol. I had a few V12 Jags incldung a 1986 and a 1991 and although the ride was wonderful it never did give me that sporty feel; maybe even at 54 I am not ready for the "cruisemaster", any one else initailly thought the same thing and then is now gald they bought a 400 over something esle; I mean did any of you ACTUALLY CONSIDER a 2 seater like a 348/355/Testa etc at first? Sorry to be a pain. The only other car that I considered that was not a Ferrari is the ASTON MARTIN DB7, 6 speed, including the GT version, has 4 seats (tight?) and is a Touring car BUT looks more like a sports car, thnx for your PATIENCE!!! OBVIOUSLY, if I can decide what is MOST important then I can make an informed decision. The truth be told folks, there are too many nice cars on the old bucket list UNDER $50K which make it that much more difficult to decide! Doc
     

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