You want an honest answer -- no. Despite all the griping about Ferrari making too many cars and so forth and so on, the fact is that ALL Ferraris are rare cars in the greater scheme of things. For example, I have a street legal Spec Miata, and it is a hoot. I highly recommend this car to anybody who is looking for a REAL sports cars. However, I have about $13K into my car, which means that I am upside down by at least $5k for a 1999 Miata with 99K miles. Why? Simple, pretty soon Miata will cross the 1 million mark. That is a one followed by six zeros. But I don't care because where else can I have so much fun with a throw-a-way car? Sorry Doc, but you're just gonna have to pony up. When I was first looking at buying a vintage Ferrari in 2000, I had the hots for a 1960 250 PF coupe (which has been discussed elsewhere on F-Chat. It was the first Ferrari imported into Japan.) The pusher man in the OC wanted $60k for the car with the tool kit and $50k without the tool kit. I freaked out. $10k for a worthless POS tool kit! However, when I talked to the King of the Toasted Ponies about this in 2000, he said that he'd pay $15k for a complete 250 tool kit. I was so stunned that I passed. Tom told me that this same car recently sold in 2005 for around $150K. Granted the owner put maybe another $50k into the car, but it proves that he who hesitates loses. Euro-Dick, you need to face the reality that vintage Ferraris are a rich man's game. THERE IS NO WAY THAT YOU CAN RATIONALLY JUSTIFY ANY OF THIS STUFF. In fact, I'll amended that statement to, "ALL FERRARIS ARE A RICH MAN'S GAME." Thick smoke, dim lights, slow horses and fast women are all cheaper. At the end of the day, You buy a Ferrari because: 1. You can. and 2. When you get behind the wheel, you know that you are experiencing something that only a very few people have. So quit trying to rationalize this stuff and start selling Viagra on Ebay. Dale
Not in the foreseeable future. Ask Tom S about this. (Tom, where are you? Our nation turns its lonely eyes to you.) He'll tell you that the current buyers are nut cases who are buying to hold, not speculate. Every time a 275 4 cam sells for $600k, there is one less on the market for the rest of us. Truth is that many of the vintage and classic Ferraris have lagged for a while. Witness Daytona selling at a buck and quarter for years. No more. One thing that stock bangers learn (usually the hard way) is that the market NEVER lies. Trust me on this one, the market never lies. Dale
Dr. Uro, if you could adjust your previous expectations to present realities, the 60's 2+2 production cars are great rides, and IMO looking to be stable with some upside as they go to the aforementioned affluent end-user babyboomers. For what you were looking at paying for a GTC, you could still have your pick of the best 2+2 models out there. Downside of course is that a 330 2+2 valve job is going to cost the same as a 330 GTS valve job.
Euro Thrashy, I've been thinking over this post and have come to the conclusion that you should NOT buy a vintage Ferrari. I'm not trying to run you off this board or anything. After all, I'm guessing that most of the people here don't have a Ferrari. No, the reason for my comment is that you are right. Buying a vintage Ferrari or even a new Ferrari is stupid money. Buying any sports car is stupid money, but buying a Ferrari is dumb and dumber. Moreover, any attempt at trying to rationalize a purchase is doomed to failure. The only viable rationalization for buying a Ferrari is that (1) you can, and (2) you want to. A while back, as an example, somebody posted about selling their car because the money aspects made them reluctant to drive the car. In this case, this guy made the right decision. If you can't enjoy it, why buy one? In a personal example, I once brought a brand new Stradale, used it one day at the track (and a few more miles) and then sold it. The round trip cost me $5,000 because, in part, I had to spend $1,000 to get the front resprayed after one day at the track. Stupid money, yes? Would I do it again? In a heartbeat. That one day at the track counts as one of my best driving experiences ever. Let's look at buying a Daytona. Two years ago, you could buy a good car for $125k all day long. Today, a good Daytona is going to set you back at least $175k. Does this mean that current Daytona owners are $50k richer? I doubt it. Most of them have spent at least this much during their ownership. The deadliest words to a vintage Ferrari owner are, "While we are here..." To restate what is hopefully obvious by now, buying a vintage Ferrari at any price is stupid money. Just think of how many cool cars you could buy for $175k? So is owning a Daytona, for example, worth it? No, no, a thousand times no. Moreover, if spending stupid money on a Ferrari is going to brother you, THEN DON'T DO IT! Hopefully, you understand that I'm trying to give you some constructive criticism. Using $100 dollar bills to light a wet fire is gonna be far cheaper than owning a Ferrari. So don't go there unless you are willing to part of the few, the proud, the truly demented. Dale
Not "where" but rather "when". A while ago. I try to justify the 330 2+2 I have becasue it has appreciated in value. I try.
I'm looking at a Series II 330 GT 2-headlamp 2+2 car myself....but what it says on Yang's website about S/N 9673 makes me a little skeptical....that it might need $25,000 worth of work on the bottom end of the motor. The car is currently here in SLC, at Steve Harris' dealership, in the service department as of monday. I also don't know who actually owns the car, because some reports say it is still Symbolic/Bill Noon. Harris want's $70,000, which is realistic, IMO, but not if it needs major engine work...
Dale: Is it possible that the truely demented are the people who discuss, debate and rationalize not buying while the cars pass them by? It is 80 degress here today, think I will take the red car to work.If you were here you could take the other one.By the way I agree there is not a way to "make money" here. If you can do it and it gives you pleasure then what I suggest is a great deal is if you can someday get most of your purchase price back. If you are fair and count all of the expenditures it is not likely that a normal[not in the trade] buyer can really make money.On the other hand this is a hobby and "breaking even" seems good to me. Malcolmb Image Unavailable, Please Login
Ferraris can be like a drug, ever notice how some are very hesitant to buy one and start with a less expensive model, then next they buy a more and more expensive model in price and potential maintenance costs? Their is no rationalization to costs in owning these cars, the costs not only in the purchase of the car but it can be also embarassing to mention to non car people as to what we spend on parts and service, but the trade in money is given back 200 times IMO in the pleasure and joy these cars can bring. Nothing is like being on a empty road in a great Ferrari. I think a large part of the rising prices in these cars is not real in reality meaning its just inflation and they are keeping up with values, some have had some speculation that have doubled or tripled in value thats true but you could wait for years for the prices to fall and the value of that time lost not owning one of these cars is substantial compared to the money that may be saved if they depreciate at all.
Many people do start with a less expensive model, then move up as they learn about the history of Ferrari and how the early cars were all hand made. I purchased my first Ferrari, a 308gtb back in 1985 for about 38,000. I only wish I bought the 275 gtb sitting next to it for the same price. I could care less about the old cars. The 308 was "it" for me. I have now learned to appreciate the vintage cars. Still love the 308 too.
Stu, 1. The Uro was putting deposits on GTCs left and right about a year to year and a half ago. The last one was a nice silver one for $70k being sold by its owner. Uro got cold feet and Tom S. jumped on it. 2. Regarding the 2+2, why not call Bill and ask him about it and also go and speak with the mechanics at the shop where it is being worked on? a couple of hours will answer a lot of questions. By the way, Theoretcal Physics and Utah - cold fusion anyone?!? Regards, Art S.
That one photographed well, but had a deep engine vibration that the mechanic told me he thought was a problem with a rod or big end. Further, the paint on top was bird-eyed in big rings apparently from poor prep, and the bottom half had minimal spray as though the painter didn't take the effort to bend down to paint the bottom. Also transmission problems. So, between engine ($25K), paint ($15K), Transmission ($15K), and who knows what else, not quite the deal you might think (~$130K). Remember that near 100 point car at Fantasy was listed for $140k at that time! I know, I know, you can always find reasons blah, blah, blah, but I have no facilities for big engine and transmission restoration.
To join that elite group: At the point of minimum uncertainty, let go, put the gun to your head, and pull the trigger. It's the same experience, whether you're a bottom feeder like me or a highend guy with $250K cash. Yes, three+ years later I now have 2X the purchase price of $32K invested in my car.
Don't leave yet! I'm on my way over! Seriously! Dale BTW, you are, of course, right. My point to Euro Trashy is that if the money is going to brother you, then don't go there.
Uro, PM Tom S., ask him what the car needed. I'm not trying to bust your balls, just trying to make you realize that you are lust after 40 year old cars. Regards, Art S. PS. if there is no one local, put a stamp on it and mail it to Francois or one of the other gods.
Dale: I agree, just pulling your chain a little. I remember when I had no money and spent half a years salary on a used 308GT4 which I drove as a daily driver for three years and 70,000 miles and then sold for what I paid for it. I changed the clutch in the garage of my condo becaus e I couldnt afford to pay to have it done. Did all the service too. I dont do much service any more, but i enjoyed it then and would now if it wasnt for the pesky work thing. Also I never really liked the part where the oil drips in your eye that much. The point of this ramble is that I have empathy for stretching to own these cars, but I KNOW that waiting for prices to fall is not the answer, except with recent models. As you i have discussed while the repair and operating costs can be substantial, depreciation is the real expense. The most costly Ferrari I have owned is the 1999 456MGT which I bought two years old and sold when it was 5 years old. I havent really added it up but I would guess between $10 and $12 per mile is about right. Nice car, but no match for the BCGT which replaced it.
