Future Appreciation of 512BB vs. 512BBi

i'm sure the responses will be split down the middle. i personally own a injection car and seldom drive it due to my travel schedule. i will drive it next month and after sitting three months...it will start right up and presumably run as it did last time i drove it.

some say the bb is fater...some say the bbi is quicker. both are gorgeous!!! the bbi works best for me.

pcb

 

I love my carb bb. I wouldn't think there would be much difference in maintenance cost, and frankly, I can't see why there should be all that much difference in purchase price, either.

365BBs are more because of the rarity, and the slightly more pure design, but once you get into a 512, I don't think there is as much difference as it sometimes appears based on the debates here.

 

Not much difference until you're at full throttle, and then the sound of the carbed 512 will walk the injected version.

 

What defines "much difference" is a very personal thing. The thing is, very few have experienced a good 365BB. I do know that a very good friend of mine had a 512BB that he loved but since he experienced my 365BB he had to have a 365, the 512 would not do anymore. This is not to say it is a better car, but just that it is quite different to drive. The engine is the heart of any Boxer - it dominates the experience. So a different engine, more peaky with less torque but higher revvibility does make for a different driving experience.

With respect to the 512BB vs BBi, too few people will know the difference for prices ever to make a big gap between the two. Of the 3 models the 365 looks the most different and is the much rarer, so people recognise that. Nevertheless, 365 pricing is kept down by the almost 2000 Boxers produced after it, people tend to put all of them in 1 category. The difference in driving experience is certainly not a factor in pricing IMHO, too few people will have experienced all three models.


Onno

 

I've had my BB for six years, and the carbs haven't been a problem at all. I've had them tuned every two years to be sure to pass the California smog test, but that's it.

Personally I like the carb car simply because of the long running Ferrari/Weber relationship, and the carbs sound great!

Right now, the carb cars are worth a bit more than the injected, but I don't know that it'll always be that way.

John

 

When I was searching for a Boxer I wanted either 512 model, I prefered the 512 over the 365 because I liked the added vents in the rear deck lid and naca ducts in the rear quarters along with the front spoiler, I also liked the improvements made in the diff and suspension less squat over the 365, I wanted a Boxer I could drive not a garage dust collector investment.

From a pure collectible view I would think the carbed 512 would appreciate more than injected as its the last 12 cylinder carb Ferrari, if you want to drive the car either one would work.

 

When I was looking - and that means over a vague series of years from 03-06 off and on - the injected cars seemed to sell at a slight bias over their carbed brethren.

Older articles and price guides also tended to give a bit more "modern" slant to the car's driveability, and thus the small premium.

More recently, this has shifted (again, not scientific, just observation) toward the carb cars. We can argue <jokingly> all day and night about the merits of each, but TO ME, it comes down to your expectation for the car.

If you're willing to accept possibly more upkeep, a dip in 'right now' driveablity, perhaps smogging sensitivity with a potential bump in long term value, the carb car is your car.

If the inverse of above, the injected car wins.

Though we all have our preferences fairly well known, the injected car is still my choice, which of course means everybody else is wrong.

 

None of these are practical cars in the modern sense. I recently did a calculation that over 20 years I have spent on average of 5k per year, that is to get the car running perfectly with everything from FI, ignition, brakes to windows to suspension to Ac, fuse box hoses etc working as designed or better. True I spent extra money on exhaust. custom modern wheels tires etc, but the reality is with a 30+ year old car, even with low mileage lots needs to be done to get it running just right as opposed to just Ok. By way of example My car was an 11k mi minter when i bought it 20 years ago and is at 18K now.

A BBI is said to be moire diveable in modern traffic because it is tractable and has a lot of torque. On the other hand a BB is said to have more and stronger top end, plus it has that carb sound. If a BB is sorted carbs not worn etc I do not think it is really going to cost more to run, than a BBI.

And as I started with, no BB is cheap of hassle free to keep running properly.

Question is where and when are you going to use it. If its all open road work, no traffic no highway a BB may be more enjoyable, if you need to deal with some modern traffic a BBI may be far more usable, the term usable being relative.

As for investment. look at countaches as a guide. A 400 periscope is worth serious $$. A LP 5000 less, a QV More.

My guess is a superb carbed boxer may be worth more years from now than a BBI, but the cost of getting a great carbed boxer will exceed the gain, and even then you are talking of a restored car. Whereas a great BBI unrestored can still be found, and an unrestored car is always going to have a premium years from now.

So really it boils down to use. All BB 512 I or carbed will have to significantly aprreciate for an owner to recoup purchase and maintanace costs if the car is kept for any period of time in top shape.

One last note on performance, if you want a BBI to go really fast, get a freer flowing exhaust and lean it out a little. Part of why a BBI was said to be slower is because the exhaust was truly restrictive and it was tuned for emissions. Yes the cams are not a high lift as a BB but what you lose in the last 500 rpms is more than compensated in torque and when running right a BBI is truley a powerful beast, its in gear accleration is still superlative compared to moderns, and well past what a carbed car can do..

You wont go wrong either way, youre likely going to have to spend $$ either way to get it running great and sort the little bits, so more a matter of finding a great car to begin with. As an investment, if you dont use it and spend money on opertaional expenses, then maybe you will have a gain, if you use it, it will cost to run,

 

A boxer in CT? I'd love to see it. Do you go to the GlastonBury meet sometimes?

 

Never been to Glastonbury, car is in southbury like to drive up to kent on occasion.

 

Great post, Sean. I would only add that if you use it, it will cost you money to keep running. If you don't use it, it will cost you even more money to keep running.

 

I've watched too, and there are times I've seen more carb cars than injected ones for sale. Possibly worth watching though.

 

Don't think it is that much, and I have a feeling the difference may be because the later figure is more truthful than the earlier one. I have a feeling the 365BB is quicker but have no way to back that up, and intellectually I would say it isn't. But if feels that way.

However, that was not what I was referring to. It was the driving experience, which has little to do with speed. It is the fact that the 365BB engine is peaky, needs to run on cam all the time, hungry for powers, buzzing, busy, that makes it very different to drive from the 512's relaxed and lazy (in comparison) attitude.

I am exaggerating in the paragraph above, but I'm trying to make a point. Best if you drive all three yourself, so you can find out how much the difference is.


Onno

 

I had to make the same decision a few years back.

At that time 365's BB and BBi's were all about the same $.

I decided that the 365 was going to be the best investment.

Only a very very few on the market.
I did find one and flew to Florida to deliver the check.
Car was totally misrepresented.

So then I had to choose between an Immaculate special BBi and a nice BB for basically the same price.

I chose the BB and if not for the current economic state IMO the car would have already taken off $ wise. As is it has slowly appreciated.

It came down to a decision between one of the last of the carburated Ferraris or one of the first injected Ferraris. The injected car probably makes more sense as a driver but the BB as an investment.

There are lots of pristine BBi's.
Very few pristine BB's.
The BBi's were bought and mothballed during the crazy years.
The BB's were actually driven prior to them.

 

Carbed Countaches trade for about $25-$50K more than the injected. With the 512 Boxers I think this will be the spread in a few years. There are always way more injected Boxers available to be bought. To find a really good carbed 512 BB is harder than to find a really good BBi. There is a 365 BB available on the East coast for about $175K. I would pay the extra dollars for a 365 as it's IMHO the best varient...

Geno
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Hop in the 512BB, settle in the seat a bit, insert the key. Nothing happens. open the front deck lid, switch the DC disconnect to ON, get back in the 512BB, settle in the seat, turn the key and wait for the fuel pumps to fill the bowls.

Pump it 3 or 4 times, and crank. It will fire right away, work the throttle slightly to keep it going. Back it our of the garage and let it warm up.
Get out of the car but don't stand behind it. ( this helps to keep your clothes from smelling like fumes).
10 minutes is a good start, the temp needle is up.
I usually short shift, but second gear is fine. 2500 max
Once the oil is warm, you can still short shift, and use 3 gear at 40KPH without any problem.
Ease into the throttle, the car will not buck but it will accelerate with ease.

If you feel like it, then, down shift, YIPEE and bury the throttle.

My personal feeling is that I found the BBi a little "soft'

 

Based on this thread, and the usual car advice, buy a good one. If you're in the 125 and under range get a great BBI, if your're in the 150K+ range get a great BB.

Whatever happens don't buy a bargain unless you don't mind spending 50-100K to make it great.

 

My feeling is that there have typically been nicer version of BBi's on the market than carbed BB's that have made the injected cars sell at a higher price.

My impression was also that a lot of the carburated cars that made it over from Europe to the USA were rode pretty hard.

Whether most buyers prefer one or the other time will tell -however for the money either one is one heck of a car.

Truth in lending statement - I own a 79 carbed Boxer.

Regards,

Drew

 

that is basically the same start up/warm up process i go through.

and yes...those bbi's are w/o question soft and i think that can be said of the owners too!

 

In my case probably soft in the head.

The warm for a BBI up is more or less the same, if for nothing else the gearbox requires it.
On the subject of performance the single greatest upgrade you can make to any BB series car is change wheels and tires, it adds another dimension to the car and completes it. That is if youre more hard core and not a softy when it comes to actualy driving the car.

Would love to try a carbed car, in theory the best would be a 512 with 365 cams, and yes I imagine the BB motor is more fun.

To make a BBI go faster you need a different exaust and to lean it out, still probably not the screamer a BB is, but close, and you get intensly precise throttle adjustability a carbed car does not have, something of an enhancement for truly epic cornering in this design.

As to cornering, modern rubber allows a BB series car to acess the genius of its suspension design. These are pretty much the only cars where turn in increases under power, know what you are doing use that precise throttle like a rheostadt along with steering to precisely dance and on any tight twisty road or tight track(lrp) you woulkd have to have a 430 on to beat a boxer. On the road its pretty much all the performance and more that you can semi sanely use.

As to a measure of performance, Years ago a daytona and I did a roll on start from about 50 in second gear down the main straight at lrp, the cars were so close, sometimes one or the other were half a car ahead through 4th, the differences were not measurably significant.

I know once rolling a BBI will smoke a 355, and if you know what you're doing you can out gun a 360, basicaly when a 360 goes on the gas you can hear the 360 computer blipping and downshifiting. In a BBI no need to downshift so by the time the 360 motor is spining and in gear you are already into your strong accleration phase and its game over. Yes above 150 I am sure a 360 will be quicker, but lets find that road.

Each BB series has a strength to exploit and savour, but unless youre running more modern rubber you are missing half the car.


If you look at what enzo was saying in period about mid engined cars and who had the skill to drive them, and if you look at the stock alignment settings and rubber, you can see that ferrari detuned the handling inherant in the design through alignment and rubber.


Whenb Nick Masons BBLM was tested it was found to be significantly faster around the track(goodwood) than his F40, with the same driver. A BBLM is certainly lighter than any BB. But a BBLM still weighed more and had less HP than a F40. Guess what a BB can handle pretty great, but its a suspension designed for track use from a era when mid engined cars were not enginered to be safe handlers, rather sharp ones for skilled hands, all it needs is rubber to acess it. And modern rubber with its stiffer sidewalls is far more predictable than stock(at least under power) and rides better.

So if we are not collectors but drivers, and are into more than just the motor(yes a BB motor should be more fun), go for modern rubber and discover the other 50% of what a boxer has to offer.

 

Appreciation? I leave that to speculators, which I translate into mostly luck. There are many (I am one) who can't believe a 246 goes for so much more than a Boxer. The market is fickle.

Onno and others have said it. If you are buying a Boxer, buy the one that checks off the most boxes for you. No Boxer checks them all. I wanted a 365, but in looking for years in the US I couldn't find one that suited me, and I prefer the look (and stability) of spoilers, intake runners and torque of FI. So I gave up the enhanced induction sound only carbs and slightly higher revs can deliver. Not to mention the 6 tail lights and exhaust outlets that I presonally prefer (minority postition, I know!)

There is a good argument to be made that the 512 BB is a great compromise. But any varient is a subtle compromise, so my advice is experience them all and buy what you like.

Buying the consensus of what people think will appreciate will likely disappoint during ownership, and when it comes time to sell.

Boxers are great cars, objectively speaking of course!