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348 Fuel pump R&R and some supply chain woes

Discussion in '348/355' started by steved033, Jan 3, 2021.

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  1. MAD828

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    #26 MAD828, Jan 5, 2021
    I will definitely open mine up and submerge in our local 98 octane pump fuel and see what happens. Just checked my order and it was purchased on the 31/12/2019 so hopefully it’s not part of the bad batch? But really if they are made bad once they can be all bad. How many people go back into the tank to check? Worrying. Sometimes it’s best to let sleeping dogs lie.
     
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  2. steved033

    steved033 F1 Rookie
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    #27 steved033, Jan 5, 2021
    Right, who goes back into the tank, but how far will the degredation go if the set shown is already cracking.

    sjd
     
  3. Ferrarium

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    #28 Ferrarium, Jan 5, 2021
    I bought mine in Feb 2019. The feel of the rubber was not right when I got them, it felt smooth and silky like not fuel save rubber. But I went ahead anyhow. :(
     
  4. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
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    #29 johnk..., Jan 5, 2021
    Looks like another case where "don't fix what ain't broke " wins out over "while you're in there".
     
  5. Ferrarium

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    #30 Ferrarium, Jan 5, 2021
    True I suppose but we know the old rubber was disolved meaning the pump was rattling around. Because the car is not stuck on the side of the road does not mean it doesn't need to be fixed. The new rubbers we're supposed to be superior and withstand ethanol or so it used to say in the description.

    In my case the fuel supply banjo fitting was actually loose so one bank was getting low fuel pressure. Fixing that solved my idle issues.

    Not sure current condition is worse than having no isolation, no rubber, no anti vibration padding in there.

    Both conditions suck.


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  6. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
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    #31 johnk..., Jan 5, 2021
    I didn't say "don't fix what IS broke". :) But I didn't get that impression from the pictures for the OP's case. I wonder how many cars are running around with with these defective rubber parts that start to disintegrate in 26 hours. :(
     
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  7. steved033

    steved033 F1 Rookie
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    #32 steved033, Jan 5, 2021
    At what point does the accelerated degradation become an issue? what if the swelling squeezed a pump out? Even though my clamp was tight when it went in, the rubber was slippery enough that a half turn and it started sliding out.

    what if the swelling rubber breaks the cup?

    there's a LOT of failures due to what (in my opinion as a mechanical engineer) is a failure to mold in the correct blend.

    sjd
     
  8. steved033

    steved033 F1 Rookie
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    #33 steved033, Jan 5, 2021
    I was doing preventative maintenance on what I thought was going to be a much bigger mess at 30 years old than it was. To me, the condition of things means it had been done when the car came out of its 100 miles in 8 years hibernation in 2008. There's no records...but what good would that have done?

    I'll just build it better and stronger. I wasn't taking a chance that I was coming home on the hook. If that means preventative maintenance, so be it.

    sjd
     
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  9. QSA

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    #34 QSA, Jan 5, 2021
    The swelling is due to the rubber’s solubility in the fuel. If it is swelling, then you are also loosing some of the rubber components as they dissolve.

    Hoping this is a “bad batch,” but I fear otherwise.

    Very helpful post BTW.
     
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  10. MAD828

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    #35 MAD828, Jan 5, 2021
    I was thinking of you John when I posted sometimes is best to let sleeping dogs lie!
     
  11. PaulK

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    #36 PaulK, Jan 5, 2021
    OK, I need to know. Why are people swapping their pumps out to larger diameter ones?
     
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  12. steved033

    steved033 F1 Rookie
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    #37 steved033, Jan 5, 2021
    we're swapping to smaller.

    the 52mm pump from bosch is readily available, and works just as well as the 60mm. there's a 36mm pump too, but I forget where that's used.

    sjd
     
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  13. PaulK

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    #38 PaulK, Jan 6, 2021
    Oh I see, makes sense. Thanks!
     
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  14. emac

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    #39 emac, Jan 6, 2021
    Glad I have been too lazy to do anything with mine. I never run ethanol fuel. Quality anything is hard to find in todays economy.
     
  15. Ferrarium

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    #40 Ferrarium, Jan 6, 2021
    Everyone ever done is my guess.
     
  16. Ferrarium

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    #41 Ferrarium, Jan 6, 2021
    That's the main fear at this point. But to be honest is not that hard to just redesign the whole thing, new machined aluminum cup using the old base but use AN fitting for return to the cup in with a Nitrile sleeve for vibration. :)
     
  17. johnk...

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    #42 johnk..., Jan 6, 2021
    Has anyone notified Daniel at Ricambi? I think he would like to know to address this with his supplier.
     
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  18. steved033

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    #43 steved033, Jan 6, 2021
    I have, he informed me of his PO batch, and said he'd reach out to others in the batch. Lead on the new batch is 120 days.

    sjd
     
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  19. Kokose7en

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    #44 Kokose7en, Jan 15, 2021
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  20. steved033

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    #45 steved033, Jan 15, 2021
    Great Data! I think it's good to know that they swell in only 24 hours or so. It'll make it easier to test future batches.

    I've been doing my own testing with samples of Nitrile and Viton. Viton 3 days in so far and no notable change. The nitrile swelled give or take 20% (pretty much along the lines of what's being seen here.

    I've got a piece of Nylon 12 in there, as I've designed a replacement fuel pump clamp/rubber ring, and was curious about my 3-d printed sizing/fit piece.

    Daniel wrote me with a new pair of test shots he got in and will dunk for us. Hopefully, I'll be able to update with news.

    sjd
     
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  21. steved033

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    #46 steved033, Jan 25, 2021
    10 days, no change in the nylon part (found to be meant for fuel applications), no change in the viton.

    Update coming when my parts arrive.

    sjd
     
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  22. 26street

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    #47 26street, Jan 30, 2021
    Question was there any fuel additives in your tank such as fuel stabilizer octane boost etc and did you check the alcohol content in the fuel that was in the tank when the problem occurred
    It’s a scary to think that a fuel line can be compromised and Fail while driving a problem of this nature was to be fix before driving for your safety as well as others
     
  23. steved033

    steved033 F1 Rookie
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    #48 steved033, Jan 30, 2021
    Nope, I've not checked the content. It's one of two premiums, straight from the pump. Either shell 93, or sunoco ethanol free 90. (the car is much happier on the latter) ...and given the evidence from Kokose7en the pump rubber swelling happened in two different straight from the pump fuels on far sides of the country.

    Researching materials, Nitrile will swell like this. Viton won't. Nitrile is much less expensive in sheet and molded form. There are better and worse nitriles, but viton is the answer in submerged applications. The answer to fuel lines themselves is PTFE. Fuel and ethanol will not harm it. If you're running E85 or higher, it's advised you not even have aluminum. There were no markings on the 52mm rubbers. I accidentally got a set of 36mm rubbers (long story) and molded on the bottom was AKRON 75. Likely a hint that they were viton. They were much harder feeling than the 52's I got. The durometer of Nitrile is 65-70 durometer and viton is 75.

    I drive enough to not need stabilizer.

    I built a muscle car with fuel line from summit. The fuel line is labelled gasoline safe. It's apparently not pump gas E10 safe. I had a terrible fuel smell in my garage that I chased and chased until I realized it was permeating through the rubber. switched to PTFE, no problem after that.

    sjd
     
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  24. 26street

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    #49 26street, Jan 30, 2021
    Wow good luck
    with all the blending of fuels staying on top of what goes in your tank is important having to repair or replace fuel system parts on any type of car is not fun, expensive and time consuming


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  25. QSA

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    #50 QSA, Jan 31, 2021
    Hey Steve, any update from Ricambi on how the replacements performed?
     
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