For manual ferraris, engine braking?

Paul, I respect the engineering and discussion… but I’ve never replaced a clutch at under 100k miles while others say their clutches go at 36k miles. Now I know why. Lol

1. he’s in a 3 series bimmer talking about heat in the engine vs brake pads.
2. He didn’t talk about his clutch life in the integra and his bimmer
3. Saving brake life is more expensive than saving clutch life
4. If this guy were at C&C I wouldn’t care about his opinion

bwahaha

 

I routinely heel and toe when braking, it’s more fun and sounds great to boot

 

The OP's question was, does engine breaking hurt an engine?
I assume, at this point, you agree with my (and others') response to his question? If not, do correct me.

***

You DO, however, bring up other topics, specifically brakes and clutch (neither are the engine).

Let's take a look at each of your points.

#1) I agree with you; he talks about negligible engine heat being preferable to brake fade; curious - did you think I would disagree?

#2 #3) Clutch life - Yes, you're right, every actuation of the clutch does cause wear; this is true regardless of engine braking.

Here's the crux - I don't know anyone in my 30 years of driving that uses engine braking as a primary method to stop or slow down. Not to mention most cases I've experienced, engine braking does not offer sufficient stopping power to decelerate in time for whatever is coming your way!

Who are these mystical beings that use engine brake as the modus operendi to come to rest?

The only time I've has done it is in to slow down in the current gear OR on a downward slope; let me remind you, I don't even shift down; I don't want to go down a mountain at 7K rpm. Hence, your clutch point is moot. I will grant you, there are times I do it purposely EXACTLY for the tactility it provides, but those are in situations where I have clear roads.

Let's play though:

For the sake of argument, let me grant you fully not only do these folks exist, but I'm the only one that doesn't use engine braking as the primary means to stop/slow down.

Who am I to judge one's driving style that only affects a WEAR AND TEAR item? It's a slippery slope; that's like me then saying somebody shouldn't brake at a specific level/frequency because it uses up brake faster, or that somebody should use their windshield wipers less because they'll need to replace it quicker, or that they shouldn't do burnouts because their tires will need replacing, or they shouldn't use day time running lights, because they need to get the bulbs replaced sooner, or they ..... Don't drink your beer because you'll need to buy another case?

#4) You have every right to dismiss Jason Fenske, the same way I'm sure you wouldn't take offense if I value his opinion over yours.

Like Car and Driver, Motortrend, and Road and Track.

 

AGREED, one of life's simple pleasures.

Somebody here though says WE should stop.

clutch wear and all.

while you're at it, be sure to take it easy on your tires and brakes too...

 

Paul needs smarter friends (still love ya though)....the answer to this is VERY situation dependent. Can you shed 1,000 rpms and cause no damage to the drivetrain? Yes, hence my answer above but understand you will go through consumables more often. Want to shed 4,000 rpms on a regular basis? Yeah good luck with that.

I'm a 30 year heavy equipment Mechanical Engineer, so you have to make sound logical decisions on million dollar equipment......much more so than a 10 year old Miata.

 

I mean, if you have to bring up million dollar industrial equipment to make your case...

 

Just the thing someone who is on the short end of the argument would say.....LOL

Don't take it personal, everyone can do whatever they want and follow the diety they want. This is a great discussion topic though.

 

Projection is strong in this one.

I'll keep on playing. you raise, I'm happy to call.

Do you both realize the term engine braking has no bearing on shifting and the clutch?

Let me repeat, It doesn't have to involve either brake or a gear shift.

All engine breaking means letting off the accelerator PERIOD.

I always grant folks that debate me a level of intellectual honesty, so I let it pass because I got what both of your arguing about, albeit still wrong.

I mean if you abuse a downshift, sure - what's this need to bring up niche strange cases around here?

**
It's like if somebody asked me, does it snow in LA?

I say no.

Then somebody will say chime in about the winter of 54' where LA got 0.3 inches, so technically yeah, it does snow in Los Angeles.

Oi vey.

 

LOL....watching you argue from behind is always alot of fun because of your high intelligence. You love to try to bury someone with mountains of words.

I'll let my professional experience stand on its own.

 

^^^ THIS ^^^

 

I know, my bad. But I make up for it by putting coffee filters over my intakes so I can extend the life of my air filters.

 

Engine breaking means taking your foot off the gas while in motion.

1. Does that wear the clutch?
2. Does that damage the engine?
3. Does that cause wear on the brakes?

Can we agree that the answer to these three questions is an unequivocal NO?

***

Okay, so folks, bring up should you downshift to slow down?

Here is where the nuances folks bring up come into play.

Can it damage the car? Yes - if done incorrectly, but lots of things done 'incorrectly' will damage your vehicle; this is a moot argument.

Will it wear the clutch? Sure - every engagement of the clutch causes some wear, however minute. However, I, too, find this argument specious given I believe the whole point of a gated is to run through the gears frequently and gratuitously. It's like arguing someone shouldn't track their car because it will wear it out more...really? Just driving wears out tires and brakes too.

The most someone can claim it may wear out the clutch 'more,' which, while true, has huge variances from car to car, driver to driver.

Given I own these cars to drive and use and not to baby them for the next person when I'm dead, I don't worry about tire/brake/clutch wear from my OWN use.

If somebody is concerned about the cost of wearing out their clutch as a reason NOT to use their gated more, that's fine - but I separate wear from damage as a very clear distinction.

 

wow!?! Here I am thinking I was the only one that did that.

Great minds think alike.

 

OK Counterpoints:
As to whether or not the engine braking does hurt an engine.. I don't know anyone who has done a study specifically on this. Could there potentially be a decrease in oil delivery with an overspun engine specifically with regard to ring longevity absent the compression offered by combustion? Hmm.. I'll have to think about that. In theory I guess no on that alone. By clutch life being a by product, the clutch wear being in excess of the engine wear several fold, itself precluding doing it.

1. No. Of course not.
2.3. I will contend that even using as an occasional method, clutch wear will be marked. As in, above 25% of those who don't use the clutch to slow down. And regarding the down hills. The way to see if there is any effect JUST BY USING IT TO MAINTAIN SPEED DOWN A HILL (not shouting just specific emphasis), is to look at cars that live in coastal western areas and mountainous areas and derive clutch replacement frequency from these areas. I suspect that by this measure alone it implies that frequent down hill travel by a car with a clutch does accumulatively increase wear and diminish clutch life.

My wear and tear contention... if there is increased wear and tear to the clutch, what about other components including the engine? If a person takes their car to the track every other day, does that indeed diminish the quality of the car? I can't judge others driving style or deride it... as long as they pay for it (so to speak). If others have to pay for it in any way, more wear becomes a negative.

4. Who? None taken. Completely understand and agree.

 

I down shift appropriately. It’s fun to drive it and shift up and down through the gears. It’s not in a museum.
Just my opinion.

 

Hello, what I can say is this, I have had my 328 for 23 years, Ive put 84,000 miles on it, and I have driven it properly, that means Ive used the brakes and the engine braking the entire time that I have owned it. I installed a Kevlar clutch disc in 2003 At 64,000 miles, the clutch still works perfectly, and the motor runs like it did when I bought it with 20 k miles. So , it all comes down to, drive your manual Ferrari however it feels most comfortably for you, its that simple. Both brakes and clutches in the Ferrari world, are not a huge issue to replace. The 328 is very reliable , the brakes and clutch last a long time. I would bet that in an F1 transmission ,your not going to get the same lifespan in the clutch. I would also venture a guess, that in your manual Ferrari, using both the engine and the brakes to scrub off speed , you will most likely get the most life out of both the clutch and the brakes ( the brakes for sure ) .On another note, way back when I first bought my car, I had a Ferrari tech tell me that if I downshifted the car at high RPMS for long periods / sustained periods of time, that the connecting rods could start to stretch, Im not sure whether or not this is true, but I can see where he was going with this. Driving / working everything properly will get the most life out of the Ferrari as whole, just like any other car. I think you should be more concerned with properly maintaining your Ferrari throughout its life, rather than worrying about how your going to slow the car down, thats just my opinion.

Thank you

 

I put 275,000 miles on a hot rod RX7, ripping burnouts and donuts every chance I got, ( I was a youngster lol ) At 275 k the transmission blew, I replaced it, sold it ( I regret that ) and bought the 328. I did all my routine maintenance , maybe 2 clutches ,and brakes when needed . The 328 I liken to the RX7, pretty much bullet proof when properly maintained and driven hard. Sadly though , I dont think the new and or modern Ferraris can take the same beating. The Japanese cars have always been bullet proof. I have a Q 50 2018 , and I can feel the build quality every time I get in it, its got 40 k miles, and Im certain it will feel the same at 200 K miles. My 328 has 104 K miles, and I have to say, it feels as good today as the day that I bought it !!! I love that car !!! So do yourself a favor, drive your Ferrari every chance you get, you only live once, and no matter what model or how expensive it is to maintain, Im positive you will have more smiles per mile than any other machine made on this planet .( some models might be excluded, there are just so many now that I get dizzy just trying to keep up )
" OH LORD WONT YOU BUY ME AN 812 SUPERFAST !! "

Thank you ,